Zack Snyder’s Justice League (2021)

[Merkur]

Originally Posted by BudBaxter

Again, he didn't leave because of 'Studio Interference'. He left because his daughter died & he was in no shape to continue making a movie.

The Snyders continued to work even after their daughter's tragic death. They didn't leave immediately. If things were smooth with WB, they would've probably stayed.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by DrWally

You're slightly missing the point. Which is that the outcome of BVS was still better than that of the outcome of that of the interfered Justice League. By far. Had Snyder been left alone, JL as released would at least have done better, but we'll never know for sure.

I think we can make an educated guess from Snyder's post-300 track record (three consecutive big budget flops and two big budget major underachievers) and the specific response to BvS that a Snyder version would have bombed. They didn't make last-minute changes because they were happy with BvS or because they thought a Snyder version was at least going to break even - they did it because, like MoS, it made half of what they were hoping for and it was poorly received by the general public as well as critics. Had they not boxed themselves into a corner by setting the start of shooting for two weeks after BvS opened and had expensive pay or play deals with the cast that would have meant massive cancellation costs, it's doubtful they would have gone ahead with a Snyder JL in any form.

None of the BvS statistics were encouraging for a Snyder JL: it made half of its money on its opening weekend, which meant that word of mouth and repeat business was poor - that's not an optimistic sign for doubling-down on Snyder's vision with a sequel. It got nowhere near the $1.5b potential gross that many were expecting. It had one of the biggest second weekend drops ever (even bigger than the second weekend drop for the underperforming MoS) and followed with further big drops.

BvS weekend drops - 69.1%/54.5/61.4%/39.1%
Mos: 64.6%/49.8%/45%/58.7%
JL: 56.2%/59.5%/42%/55.4%

So, as well as scoring a higher Cinemascore rating from OW moviegoers, JL had better holds after its poor start, implying better general word of mouth.

Those drops look even worse compared to Wonder Woman, which had strong WM:

WW - 43.3%/29.5%/39.6%/36.9%

Most damning were the home video numbers - at $80.5m, lower than the lower-grossing MoS ($120m) or Wonder Woman ($98m) by a substantial margin. While home video numbers were dropping year on year, the drop from MoS was above normal and the fact the subsequent WW did better implies that BvS wasn't something that won viewers over on a new cut.

The theatrical JL's lousy opening could easily be put down to the bad taste BvS left in mainstream audiences' mouths: the fact that it held a bit better - making about 59% of its total after its OW (still below average but not as embarrassingly far below average as BvS) implies a more favorable general audience reaction. If you look at rottentomatoes it's not just the critics who preferred it: while BvS got 28% critics and 63% audience ratings, JL got 40% critics and 71% audience.

The very best you can say about Snyder's 'vision' was that it was, to put it kindly, hugely divisive, and dividing the audience for their biggest IPs was simply not what he was hired to do.

JL was doomed from the moment BvS landed with a thud and left a bad taste in too many of the audiences' mouths that they weren't coming back, no matter what (and forget fanboys: studios don't care about them because there aren't enough to make a $250-300m film a hit while most of the audience don't care about who directed their men in spandex movies). I'm pretty sure that by bringing in the director of The Avengers in the studio equivalent of a Hail Mary pass they made more at the box-office than they would have with Snyder.

And creative freedom is never a problem. Ever.

And dammit, we've got some of the biggest and most self-indulgent box-office and critical disasters of all time and a handful of defunct studios to prove it!

[Vincanws]

I really like Man of Steel and BvS Ultimate vers. Justice League Weadon cut was a travesty, and glad Snyder version is getting out uncompromised.

[Darby1985]

Originally Posted by Merkur

The Snyders continued to work even after their daughter's tragic death. They didn't leave immediately. If things were smooth with WB, they would've probably stayed.

Yes, 100%. And before the tragedy, JL was cut down from 2 films to 1, after Debra Snyder pretended that was the plan all along...

Warners panicked BIG TIME the minute BvS struggled to make back it's money in real terms, with above and below the line costs.

[indisposed]

Originally Posted by Aclea

The theatrical JL's lousy opening could easily be put down to the bad taste BvS left in mainstream audiences' mouths: the fact that it held a bit better - making about 59% of its total after its OW (still below average but not as embarrassingly far below average as BvS) implies a more favorable general audience reaction. If you look at rottentomatoes it's not just the critics who preferred it: while BvS got 28% critics and 63% audience ratings, JL got 40% critics and 71% audience.

The very best you can say about Snyder's 'vision' was that it was, to put it kindly, hugely divisive, and dividing the audience for their biggest IPs was simply not what he was hired to do.

JL was doomed from the moment BvS landed with a thud and left a bad taste in too many of the audiences' mouths that they weren't coming back, no matter what (and forget fanboys: studios don't care about them because there aren't enough to make a $250-300m film a hit while most of the audience don't care about who directed their men in spandex movies). I'm pretty sure that by bringing in the director of The Avengers in the studio equivalent of a Hail Mary pass they made more at the box-office than they would have with Snyder.

I can't speak for everyone, but the main reason I didn't see Justice League in the cinema (I still haven't seen it) was the production difficulties that surrounded it. Say what you will about Synder, but I always feel there's a sincere vision behind his films, no matter how misguided they are at times. When I heard Joss Whedon was taking over (after The Snyders personal loss) I lost interest. I was never a fan of his glib writing style and I more or less gave up on Marvel after the first Avengers (again, I'm clearly in the minority on this). D.C I was giving a chance as they were going for a darker, somewhat more grown up approach... again more sincere. They were also "the underdogs" in a way, which just appeals to me more. As for Justice League not doing well, I do wonder how much of the bad press Whedon got about his infidelities had in the lower numbers, but as you alluded... other than twitter warriors and bloggers, most people (rightly or wrongly) don't factor in any of that kind of stuff.

[DrWally]

Originally Posted by Aclea

I think we can make an educated guess from Snyder's post-300 track record (three consecutive big budget flops and two big budget major underachievers) and the specific response to BvS that a Snyder version would have bombed. They didn't make last-minute changes because they were happy with BvS or because they thought a Snyder version was at least going to break even - they did it because, like MoS, it made half of what they were hoping for and it was poorly received by the general public as well as critics. Had they not boxed themselves into a corner by setting the start of shooting for two weeks after BvS opened and had expensive pay or play deals with the cast that would have meant massive cancellation costs, it's doubtful they would have gone ahead with a Snyder JL in any form.

None of the BvS statistics were encouraging for a Snyder JL: it made half of its money on its opening weekend, which meant that word of mouth and repeat business was poor - that's not an optimistic sign for doubling-down on Snyder's vision with a sequel. It got nowhere near the $1.5b potential gross that many were expecting. It had one of the biggest second weekend drops ever (even bigger than the second weekend drop for the underperforming MoS) and followed with further big drops.

BvS weekend drops - 69.1%/54.5/61.4%/39.1%
Mos: 64.6%/49.8%/45%/58.7%
JL: 56.2%/59.5%/42%/55.4%

So, as well as scoring a higher Cinemascore rating from OW moviegoers, JL had better holds after its poor start, implying better general word of mouth.

Those drops look even worse compared to Wonder Woman, which had strong WM:

WW - 43.3%/29.5%/39.6%/36.9%

Most damning were the home video numbers - at $80.5m, lower than the lower-grossing MoS ($120m) or Wonder Woman ($98m) by a substantial margin. While home video numbers were dropping year on year, the drop from MoS was above normal and the fact the subsequent WW did better implies that BvS wasn't something that won viewers over on a new cut.

The theatrical JL's lousy opening could easily be put down to the bad taste BvS left in mainstream audiences' mouths: the fact that it held a bit better - making about 59% of its total after its OW (still below average but not as embarrassingly far below average as BvS) implies a more favorable general audience reaction. If you look at rottentomatoes it's not just the critics who preferred it: while BvS got 28% critics and 63% audience ratings, JL got 40% critics and 71% audience.

The very best you can say about Snyder's 'vision' was that it was, to put it kindly, hugely divisive, and dividing the audience for their biggest IPs was simply not what he was hired to do.

JL was doomed from the moment BvS landed with a thud and left a bad taste in too many of the audiences' mouths that they weren't coming back, no matter what (and forget fanboys: studios don't care about them because there aren't enough to make a $250-300m film a hit while most of the audience don't care about who directed their men in spandex movies). I'm pretty sure that by bringing in the director of The Avengers in the studio equivalent of a Hail Mary pass they made more at the box-office than they would have with Snyder.



And dammit, we've got some of the biggest and most self-indulgent box-office and critical disasters of all time and a handful of defunct studios to prove it!

Most of this is superficially persuasive, although it's worth pointing out that the OPENING weekend for BVS was the long Easter weekend, and the SECOND weekend for JL was the long Thanksgiving weekend. Which is a factor you should take into consideration when comparing their holds, because they weren't opening on a like-for-like playing field. If you have one movie that's released on a holiday weekend, and one movie released the weekend before, obviously the movie that's released the weekend before the holiday weekend is going to hold better.

My contention is that a Snyder JL, released in November 2017, without all of the fan-appeasing backtracking and mea culpa tour posturing ('Hey,we're putting in more jokes, and more fun! Just for you guys! Please like us. Please!') would have performed better, because it would show a studio standing confidently by its director rather than making a superhero blockbuster look like a whimpering, cowardly, second-guessed basket of damaged goods. But it's all intangible anyway so I won't push back at your intelligently argued post too much.

Expect to say that yes, creative freedom has led to some inarguable critical and box office disasters and defunct studios. It's also led to some of the best and most successful movies of all time. So if a talent like Snyder has delivered for you in the past (as Snyder has for Warner, since only one movie out five that he made for them has not made significant money), then they have enough credit in the bank to finish what they started. I mean, Andrew Stanton wantonly flushed over $200 million dollars of Disney's money down the toilet on John Carter, and yet he was still back at Disney making movies a couple of years later. Snyder had more than earned the same regard from Warner.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by DrWally

Most of this is superficially persuasive, although it's worth pointing out that the OPENING weekend for BVS was the long Easter weekend, and the SECOND weekend for JL was the long Thanksgiving weekend. Which is a factor you should take into consideration when comparing their holds, because they weren't opening on a like-for-like playing field. If you have one movie that's released on a holiday weekend, and one movie released the weekend before, obviously the movie that's released the weekend before the holiday weekend is going to hold better.

Which ignores the fact that BvS, whichever way you cut it, made half its money OW.

My contention is that a Snyder JL, released in November 2017, without all of the fan-appeasing backtracking and mea culpa tour posturing

It wasn't 'fan-appeasing' - the fanbase isn't big enough theatrically to really care about - it was a reaction to the dismal reception and drop off a cliff performance of BvS from the mass audience.

('Hey,we're putting in more jokes, and more fun! Just for you guys! Please like us. Please!')

You mean like putting a jar of Lex Luthor's piss on a senator's desk?

yes, creative freedom has led to some inarguable critical and box office disasters and defunct studios. It's also led to some of the best and most successful movies of all time.

Which, with the best will in the world, none of Snyder's films are.

So if a talent like Snyder has delivered for you in the past (as Snyder has for Warner, since only one movie out five that he made for them has not made significant money), then they have enough credit in the bank to finish what they started.

That's not even close to true: prior to the seriously underforming MoS and BvS he had three significant money losers in a row. Basically after five swings at bat and missing every time, then you've run out of credit.

I mean, Andrew Stanton wantonly flushed over $200 million dollars of Disney's money down the toilet on John Carter, and yet he was still back at Disney making movies a couple of years later.

$307m plus $100m marketing. But unlike Snyder, he had a strong track record in animated blockbusters - and his next film was an animated sequel to his biggest hit that delivered. They won't let him near a $250m live-action film again in a hurry.

Snyder had more than earned the same regard from Warner.

No: it's hard to think of any studio overindulging a film director in recent years as Warners did Snyder. After 300 they gave him Watchmen and let him release three separate cuts. That flopped, but they still let him make a cartoon owl movie. That flopped, but they still let him make Sucker Punch. That flopped, but they still let him make Man of Steel (admittedly he wasn't their first choice, but they needed a director fast before their rights to the origin story expired). That did less than half of what the studio predicted, so naturally they let him make BvS and release two cuts of that. And we all know what happened there. And after he left JL they still let him have sole director credit (he could easily have gone the Alan Smithee route). And after that flopped they're still letting him play with the Fountainhead script (because after Atlas Shrugs flopped - three times - there's clearly a huge audience out there waiting for the next Ayn Rand movie diatribe) and giving him money to do a Snyder 'fan-appeasing backtracking and mea culpa tour posturing' TV version of JL. The bastards.

There's nothing to indicate a Snyder JL would have done better at the box-office beyond wishful thinking from the people who liked BvS, and rather more to indicate it would have done worse.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by indisposed

I can't speak for everyone, but the main reason I didn't see Justice League in the cinema (I still haven't seen it) was the production difficulties that surrounded it.

But people like you or I on movie-related message boards are the minority: it's the mass audience that studios are chasing with these juggernauts, and to them it's another superhero movie and all that stuff is irrelevant. What counts is how good or bad they thought the last one was. Unless you're on the Heaven's Gate/Cleopatra level of production chaos with a high profile picture it rarely registers (for example, both Pluto Nash and Town and Country were in production Hell for over two years and each cost around $110m but were never on the public radar).

When I heard Joss Whedon was taking over (after The Snyders personal loss) I lost interest. I was never a fan of his glib writing style and I more or less gave up on Marvel after the first Avengers (again, I'm clearly in the minority on this).

Neither was I: it felt like one of those disappointing season finale/special guest star TV episodes that underwhelm. But again, the mainstream audience the studio wanted embraced it. It was a panic move by WB, but an understandable one after they stupidly painted themselves into a corner.

As for Justice League not doing well, I do wonder how much of the bad press Whedon got about his infidelities had in the lower numbers, but as you alluded... other than twitter warriors and bloggers, most people (rightly or wrongly) don't factor in any of that kind of stuff.

It hadn't gone full #metoo or bullying allegations and was more ugly divorce stuff at the time: a big effect on the Buffy fanbase and it took the shine off him, but I don't think most moviegoers cared.

[Peachfuzz]

Early reviews are suggesting Snyder's cut is very good indeed.

[Aclea]

I've seen a more mixed response, with even the positive reviews (as well as negative ones that are equally unimpressed with the theatrical do over) acknowledging it's aimed purely at the Snyder/BvS fanbase rather than a general audience. The tonal inconsistencies are gone, but the same divisive issues from BvS are magnified, so it's a YMMV/Marmite movie. Still, the critics are all agreed that Cavill's upper lip is a vast improvement.

[Peachfuzz]

Bit more of a 50/50 thing now more reviews are coming in. I'm an admirer of Snyder's work (when it's not being sabotaged by Warner), so i'm doubtlessly going to enjoy this, regardless.

[lateralspin]

The cinematography is delightful eye candy

[Tuc0]

Man of Steel and BvS ultimate are as good as any good Marvel film in my books. If ZSJL is in the same boat I am a happy camper.

[BigNickUK]

As this is being released by Warner Bros in May there is no reason to think it wont be released in the UK much like Wonder Woman 1984
USA and Australia have confirmed dates
https://movieweb.com/justice-league-...-release-date/

[lateralspin]

I want a steelbook of this

[Monkeyspoons Revenge]

Originally Posted by Aclea

I've seen a more mixed response, with even the positive reviews (as well as negative ones that are equally unimpressed with the theatrical do over) acknowledging it's aimed purely at the Snyder/BvS fanbase rather than a general audience. The tonal inconsistencies are gone, but the same divisive issues from BvS are magnified, so it's a YMMV/Marmite movie. Still, the critics are all agreed that Cavill's upper lip is a vast improvement.

That’s the takeaway from most of the reviews. It’s an improvement over the original, but not the groundbreaking film DC fans would lead you to believe. It still should have been further along the DCEU canon than it was. It was rushed too early. Part of the reason some Marvel films are so epic (Endgame for example) is because they waited to do team up films until characters were established.

[Peachfuzz]

Originally Posted by Monkeyspoons Revenge

That’s the takeaway from most of the reviews. It’s an improvement over the original, but not the groundbreaking film DC fans would lead you to believe. It still should have been further along the DCEU canon than it was. It was rushed too early. Part of the reason some Marvel films are so epic (Endgame for example) is because they waited to do team up films until characters were established.

It should be kept in mind that much of the media was extremely hostile to the very mention of 'the Snyder cut'. Even if he had managed to transform the trainwreck theatrical version into one of the greatest superhero movie ever made, there was always going to be those who hated it because of what it is, because of what it represents to them (I'm not suggesting every lukewarm or negative review is due to this). The very fact this thing isn't being torn to ribbons from top to bottom (because knives were out, make no mistake) is reason for encouragement alone.

I absolutely agree that the whole thing should have been further along the DCEU canon. Warner pushed it all too fast. And this is what happened.

We'll all get to make up our own minds soon. I'm not really expecting this version of the film to win over many people. But I am expecting it to fix a broken film.

[Sky_Captain]

Yeah, I'm not expecting it to be some glorious masterpiece. I am however expecting it to obliterate that janky bollocks that WB deemed fit for release back in 2017.

If it manages to veer back more towards Batman v Superman territory, I will be very happy.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Peachfuzz

It should be kept in mind that much of the media was extremely hostile to the very mention of 'the Snyder cut'. Even if he had managed to transform the trainwreck theatrical version into one of the greatest superhero movie ever made, there was always going to be those who hated it because of what it is, because of what it represents to them (I'm not suggesting every lukewarm or negative review is due to this). The very fact this thing isn't being torn to ribbons from top to bottom (because knives were out, make no mistake) is reason for encouragement alone.

I absolutely agree that the whole thing should have been further along the DCEU canon. Warner pushed it all too fast. And this is what happened.

We'll all get to make up our own minds soon. I'm not really expecting this version of the film to win over many people. But I am expecting it to fix a broken film.

That's all I really want. The fact that the Snyder Cut even happened is a mild/moderate miracle. The chances of a true follow-up anytime soon are probably infinitesimal at best. :/

[Anthony Thorne]

Three raves.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/z...ie-review-2021

https://variety.com/2021/film/review...ll-1234928648/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/...r-apocalyptic/

I’m looking forward to watching it.