Fox and DTS HD-MA

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Kayne314

I have a PS3 as well, but was never under the delusion it was a complete BD player. The benefit with the PS3 for me was that it could upgrade its BD functions as time went on. And if it couldn't upgrade, well it is still the most advanced game machine on the market.

I don't quite buy that you are completely naive on the subject and I don't like your inference that people were delusional thinking the PS3 was a complete BD player.

The fact is that the PS3 will probably be the most widely used BD probably over the life of the format. So FOX should be at least including a lossless option that everyone can enjoy.

If dts lossless sounds better than Dolby lossless, that could be a setup problem in your equipment. I think if you have the bitstream option set in the PS3, the unit will send the embedded DD track to the receiver when you have selected TrueHD. I could be wrong on that but I thought someone mentioned that a while ago.

[DaViD Boulet]

I don't quite buy that you are completely naive on the subject and I don't like your inference that people were delusional thinking the PS3 was a complete BD player.

Craig,

I don't understand this child-like mentality that takes offense at comments that aren't even remotely insulting. Kayne314 said nothing that warrants anyone getting their feathers ruffled. He just said that he knew that the PS3 didn't do everything BD should do out of the box, and that updates or a new player would be in his future to close the gap.

His point about updates seems missed on many here. When the PS3 gets updated for DTS-HD MA in the near future, will those of you decrying the use of DTS-HD MA be content or will your dissatisfaction continue along some other line of argument?

The fact is that the PS3 will probably be the most widely used BD probably over the life of the format. So FOX should be at least including a lossless option that everyone can enjoy.

And since DTS-HD MA decoding is coming to the PS3, it's all the more reason for Fox and consumers to not have a problem with DTS-HD MA.

If dts lossless sounds better than Dolby lossless, that could be a setup problem in your equipment.

Most of us with adequate hearing have no trouble discerning that, in general, DTS running at 1500+ sounds better than DD at 640. That's pretty consistent in my system and many listeners feel the same.

[esteban2]

DTS-MA is a great solution for WHAT problem?

The PS3, the dominant BD player, can't decode it. That IS a problem.

In contrast, MPCM and True-HD are as good as DTS-MA, so who needs it?

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

DTS-HD MA is a great solution and there will soon be a plethora of players that can decode, as well as bitstream to outboard devices via 1.3. The fact that the hardware has taken a while to catch up with Blu-ray specs should not cause us to look backwards and stop the format from moving forward. We're early adoptors: we're audio/videophiles. We should be happy that content providers are future-thinking with their software and not merely authoring for legacy gear.

There are positives to DTS-HD MA over Dolby TrueHD: DTS-HD MA has a better sounding "core" stream for non-advanced-audio listeners that the 640 dolby track on TrueHD titles, and so delivers superior sound for those without HDMI at present.

It also takes less space than TrueHD since the DTS "core" is built upon with exention frames to provide the Master Audio quality, versus Dolby's companion track for TrueHD on BD (so in some cases it's the best solution if bandwidth is a problem).

[Tok]

Originally Posted by JAGUAR1977

IMO lossy core tracks are as equally important as lossless tracks, as this is the track the vast majority of mainstream, even early adopter, consumers will have access to.

IMO DTS core tracks are superior to DD, I'm happy to see New Line adopting this codec.

Remember though the lossy inclusion is just a stop gap that was included to ease the transition. Eventually most users will have equipment to enjoy lossless.

I have yet to see blind A-B test where people have consistently preferred lossy dts over DD. They both throw information away based on completely different human hearing priciples. So you can't just look at datarate. I like 1.5Mbps dts, but on DVD very few DVDs made use of it after halfrate was introduced. To me DD@448kbps on DVD was better than halfrate dts, but this thread is about next gen lossless codecs and that more people have the equipment to enjoy DolbyTrueHD.

And I don't like it how people attack Dolby for their addtional encoder features. dts has many of those features as but they don't make it known in their marketing to general consumers.

If you were buying an encoder, would you buy the one that gives more encoding options or one that would only allow you to do it one way. Don't kid yourself dts has many of the same features as Dolby.

[DaViD Boulet]

Remember though the lossy inclusion is just a stop gap that was included to ease the transition. Eventually most users will have equipment to enjoy lossless.

And the fact that the PS3 can't fully decode DTS-HD MA is a temporary stop-gap too.

[DaViD Boulet]

DTS-MA is a great solution for WHAT problem?

for SPDIF listeners who don't have HDMI-enabled receivers (since it has the better sounding SPDIF core).

The PS3, the dominant BD player, can't decode it. That IS a problem.

Paidgeek has already confirmed it's coming early '08. Problem solved.

In contrast, MPCM and True-HD are as good as DTS-MA, so who needs it?

In full lossless mode, they're all equal in theory, though in practice dialog normalization is applied often to TrueHD which destroys bit-for-bit accuracy to the PCM master (one reason why I like DTS-HD MA as a solution because it avoids such pitfalls by design). Every WB TrueHD stream has dialog normalization. There are a few WB titles with both TrueHD and PCM and listeners have said that the PCM sounded better. Even Amir conceded that the sonic compromise of the TrueHD probably had to do with DN processing.

[Bobby Henderson]

Kinda funny how there isn't much of any "DTS-HD vs. Dolby TrueHD" discussion on that other disc format since hardly any of the movies on that other disc format have lossless surround audio tracks.

Just another reason why Blu is better. We can dig up format wars of old (DTS vs. DD) but enjoy it on the same kind of movie disc.

[owa]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Paidgeek has already confirmed it's coming early '08. Problem solved.

I didn't realize it had been officially confirmed so that's great news. Do you have the link to his post? If not, don't worry about it. I can search for it.

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

for SPDIF listeners who don't have HDMI-enabled receivers (since it has the better sounding SPDIF core).



Paidgeek has already confirmed it's coming early '08. Problem solved.



In full lossless mode, they're all equal in theory, though in practice dialog normalization is applied often to TrueHD which destroys bit-for-bit accuracy to the PCM master (one reason why I like DTS-HD MA as a solution because it avoids such pitfalls by design). Every WB TrueHD stream has dialog normalization. There are a few WB titles with both TrueHD and PCM and listeners have said that the PCM sounded better. Even Amir conceded that the sonic compromise of the TrueHD probably had to do with DN processing.

1) I agree that the DTS-core at 1.5 mbps sounds better than the DD core at 640k. Because my BD player is the PS3, i am stuck with that for those fox discs. The other night i watched "sunshine", and the DTS core sounded great.

But of course it wasn't lossless. I'm not interested in which of the LOSSY formats sound better, that's a band-aid.

2) I don't understand why Sony hasn't already released a firmware update that allows the PS3 to decode DTS-MA. If we get one, great, problem solved.

3) I have an HDMI receiver, so i've been able to listen to both True-HD 5.1 and PCM 5.1 lossless tracks on both BD and HD-DVD discs. So far, no differences detected.

Bottom line: As long as the PS3 can't decode it, FOX deserves criticism for releasing BD discs with DTS-MA as the ONLY lossless multi-channel option.

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Kinda funny how there isn't much of any "DTS-HD vs. Dolby TrueHD" discussion on that other disc format since hardly any of the movies on that other disc format have lossless surround audio tracks.

clearly, a greater % of BD discs have multichannel lossless compared to HD-DVD.

But, "hardly any" isn't accurate, at least not for my collection. i have about 90 HD-DVD discs, and about 40 of them have 5.1 lossless.

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

DTS-HD MA provides the full lossless soundtrack with the best lossy core at the same time. This is indisputable.

Yes, but so do True-HD and MPCM. So what if it uses less BW? Since when has BW been a problem?

The only argument that can be made against DTS-HD MA is that few players decode it right now(zero as of this moment).

That's like saying "the only argument that can be made against voting Thomas Jefferson into the White House this year is that he is dead".

As long as the PS3 can't decode it, NO discs should be made with DTS-MA as the ONLY lossless surround option.

[DaViD Boulet]

Only about 27% of HD DVDs provide lossless audio.

You're lucky that half of the HD DVD titles you purchased happen to have it!

Bottom line: As long as the PS3 can't decode it, FOX deserves criticism for releasing BD discs with DTS-MA as the ONLY lossless multi-channel option.

Uh, why does a STUDIO deserve criticism for the fact that BD Hardware manufacturers haven't kept pace with the full BD spec as quickly as they should?

Sofware will be on your shelf for 20 years. You'll update that player in a few months.

The proper priority should be to have BD software move forward even if the hardware takes a little while to catch up.

Honestly, all this drama over the PS3 not having full decoding just yet. Paidgeek said IT IS COMING and it's coming in early '08. Can we relax and move on?

[WickyWoo]

Sofware will be on your shelf for 20 years. You'll update that player in a few months.

Speak for yourself. I was running the same Pioneer DV-414 from May 1999 until I got their upconverter back in November. Thousands of hours and 8 years of good service

[DaViD Boulet]

We knew that BD hardware wasn't fully up to spec when we bought it. Any serious early-adoptor BD consumer should be well versed with profile and specification shortcomings.

The solution is not to ask the software companies to compromise their product to fit the featureset of BD hardware that was purchased with full knowledge of its limitations.

If any BD enthusiast early-adoptor cared enough to want to purchase a player with the best likelihood of upgradability, they had the choice to purchase the PS3. That's the same product which will be soon receiving an update for DTS-HD MA decoding.

Can we move on?

[Scorxpion]

Paidgeek has already confirmed it's coming early '08. Problem solved.

And Sir Terence our insider confirmed it too that PS3 capable of decoding DTSHD MA audio but its only a matter of time.

[Kayne314]

Originally Posted by CraigW

I don't quite buy that you are completely naive on the subject and I don't like your inference that people were delusional thinking the PS3 was a complete BD player.

The fact is that the PS3 will probably be the most widely used BD probably over the life of the format. So FOX should be at least including a lossless option that everyone can enjoy.

If dts lossless sounds better than Dolby lossless, that could be a setup problem in your equipment. I think if you have the bitstream option set in the PS3, the unit will send the embedded DD track to the receiver when you have selected TrueHD. I could be wrong on that but I thought someone mentioned that a while ago.

I'm not inferring anyone is delusional. I am merely stating that I did my homework first. Like all of you.

And for the record. The bitrates and all. How the mixes are encoded. All sounds like greek to me.

Maybe my 705 processes the DTS-HD MA differently than the other tracks. I'm open to that possibility. As for the set-up of the system, I am reasonably sure that that is not an issue. (Audyssey set-up.)

[rub]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

Paidgeek has already confirmed it's coming early '08. Problem solved.

And Sir Terence our insider confirmed it too that PS3 capable of decoding DTSHD MA audio but its only a matter of time.

If true, then that is fantastic news!

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Only about 27% of HD DVDs provide lossless audio.

You're lucky that half of the HD DVD titles you purchased happen to have it!



Uh, why does a STUDIO deserve criticism for the fact that BD Hardware manufacturers haven't kept pace with the full BD spec as quickly as they should?

Sofware will be on your shelf for 20 years. You'll update that player in a few months.

1) ok, call me lucky.

2) it's the STUDIOs fault because other studios have been able to give us either THD or MPCM. if the other studios can, why not FOX?

Hiding behind the "full BD specs" claim is a cop-out. EVERYONE knows that the PS3 is the dominant BD player. It's irresponsible to release audio tracks on BD discs that the PS3 can't utilize.


3) 20 years? i doubt it. the next generation of hi-def, whatever that will be (2000p or somesuch?) will be here within the next 5-10.

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

We knew that BD hardware wasn't fully up to spec when we bought it. Any serious early-adoptor BD consumer should be well versed with profile and specification shortcomings.

The solution is not to ask the software companies to compromise their product to fit the featureset of BD hardware that was purchased with full knowledge of its limitations.

1) BD has won the format war because of "non-serious" adopters - people who bought the PS3 for games but are using it as a BD player. Not really fair to hold these people - the difference makers for BD - to account for not knowing detailed specifications.

2) If Fox were to provide us with an MPCM track, how would that be "compromsing" their software compared to having a DTS-MA track?

Look, i know i'm lucky: i have a PS3 and a firmware fix for DTS-MA is likely right around the corner. But until then, i'm not lucky ...

Here's a key point, and it has to do with viewing habits: Let's say that next month the PS3 firmware for DTS-MA is released. Am i 100% good? NOPE, because i've already watched movies like X3 and Sunshine. Am i going to go back and watch them again just to hear the lossless track? Nope, i've moved on to other movies, and so i've missed out on that experience ...

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

In my opinion, not backed up by any scuttlebutt or rumors, DTS has paid New Line and Fox in a last ditch attempt to avoid obsolescence.

Filmmixer over at AVS tends to differ. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12731625

Regardless, I really don't understand all the hatred towards DTS. Did DTS shoot someones dog or something? I'll admit that DTS was late to the dance again, as they were with LaserDisc and DVD, and that it is very irritating, but it shouldn't be too long before DTS-HD MA is supported in virtually all new Blu-ray players and the PS3, either by internal decoding or bitstreaming (or both). I've been playing this home theater game for a long time, and patience has always been a requirement. I can wait.

BTW, I personally find DTS' lossy codec to be better than Dolby's. With lossless there should be no difference however, assuming equivalent Dial Norm numbers. (For those that don't know, DTS-HD MA has Dial Norm just like Dolby TrueHD. Check page 8 of this document on DTS' web site. http://dts.com/media/DTS_MAS_brochure_final.pdf )