Killing The Hobby

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by Neutron82

I never said it was but I'm trying to offer solutions, it seems like you're more content on complaining and shooting everything down

Well, that is not my intention, but I can see why you think that based on my posts. To be honest, I wish your idea was foolproof as then I wouldn’t have so much FOMO on Limited Editions I can’t immediately afford.

I understand this thread is skewing negative by its very title and context, but it comes from a genuine concern that all these hyperbolic releases could bring the hobby crashing down. I don’t want that to happen, but it worries me because the pattern is becoming firmly established. The world of collectors and “collectibles” can prove very fickle and bring down the whole hobby as we see with baseball cards and comic books being on a downturn right now. Too much of a good thing can happen with any hobby.

[GenPion]

I love the limited editions. I'll take all the limited editions I can get. As long as it's a film I'm excited about seeing or have loved in the past, it's exciting to me.

What's not to love other than a (somewhat) higher cost? The deluxe sets are gorgeous. Steelbooks, collectors editions, and the like mean the world to me - and make this an even more fun hobby to have. I love physical media - let's celebrate one of the things that makes it so unique - it's physical - and special limited editions help with celebrating these films. It's almost like the coolest middle finger to the streaming industry possible, too. You could stream a movie or you can own it on disc with a superior video-audio presentation, bonus features, and ridiculously cool collectible packaging and swag. I know which option I prefer and I don't see these collectors editions disappearing from the market ever. The fact these editions sell out almost like hotcakes is proof enough the market is never disappearing.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by GenPion

I love the limited editions. I'll take all the limited editions I can get. As long as it's a film I'm excited about seeing or have loved in the past, it's exciting to me.

What's not to love other than a (somewhat) higher cost? The deluxe sets are gorgeous. Steelbooks, collectors editions, and the like mean the world to me - and make this an even more fun hobby to have. I love physical media - let's celebrate one of the things that makes it so unique - it's physical - and special limited editions help with celebrating these films. It's almost like the coolest middle finger to the streaming industry possible, too. You could stream a movie or you can own it on disc with a superior video-audio presentation, bonus features, and ridiculously cool collectible packaging and swag. I know which option I prefer and I don't see these collectors editions disappearing from the market ever. The fact these editions sell out almost like hotcakes is proof enough the market is never disappearing.

Believe it or not, I actually agree with a lot of this post. Of course, I am a movie fan and cinephile and have earned my living from movies ever since I was a teenager. So why wouldn't I be attracted to a beautifully crafted package to house a favorite movie and have enshrined in my personal library?

I have purchased many Limited Editions from boutique labels over the years and they can indeed be stunning works of art in and of themselves regardless of the movie(s), but for me the hobby is swinging too far in that direction and making it less financially feasible for SOME OF US who can't match the discretionary income of others who are cheerleading and championing this new direction for the hobby.

Plus, as with Twilight Time, eventually the bubble may burst because it is not the most sustainable of business models. Putting all your eggs in the baskets of "collectors" and "collector mentality" can easily backfire, like it did with the comics industry in the 90's when all sorts of gimmicks and specialty features glutted the market and imploded. That had more to do with speculators and investors than the films on disc hobby does, but I still see pitfalls in the practice.

As always, buy what you like and can AFFORD and don't let FOMO rule your decisions. My hope is that labels who don't actively invest and engage in all the frills strictly for the collectors continue to flourish and remain the backbone of the industry and the hobby.

[crutzulee]

I don't think there is anything that can ever kill the collector market as there will always be collectors. I used to be one.

I LOVED coloured and " clear" vinyl editions back in the day... I've listened to more commentaries on Laserdisc than I have on DVD, BD and UHD combined. With the switch to physically smaller media and the availability of online content, I couldn't give a rat's ass about how the movie is packaged or what comes with it. As a person that no longer attends the Theater, I just want the movie available to watch at home, in as best a quality as possible, as early as possible..I recognize that collector's drive a market that often gets a movie remastered or revisited in a fashion that benefits me even as I will more than likely toss the slip cover or never look at the items that come in the box...a box that will go in an even bigger box once my son has ripped ONLY the movie to our server for watching in my HT...

[cgpublic]

From my perspective as the decline of the physical media has accelerated, the boutique market has evolved into two general business models with some overlap.

One is based on volume, e.g., Criterion and Kino, which is to primarily acquire a high number of titles, most from major IP owners and incorporating a wide selection of genres. This model strives to keep per title costs low, recognizing that the majority of revenue will be driven by sales in volume.

The other is based on brand and related exclusivity, e.g., VS and a slew of others, niche genres, undiscovered gems, overlooked or problematic major studio releases, etc., accompanied with limited availability and related packaging. This model is a bit more risky, in that the success with this model is based on acquiring or investing in a quality source combined with an accurate forecast of how many units will be sold to active buyers, often nostalgic for the films of their youth, hence the likelihood to err on the side of selling out the entire run. Ultimately, since there usually exists a smaller pool of buyers for these titles, there is a need to maximize profit per title to minimize the lack of volume, hence the swag.

Of course, there are some labels, e.g., Arrow, with a foot in both models depending on the title and/or genre, and imprints such as WAC that are a byproduct of maintaining a large IP portfolio. Many of the above are also playing in the streaming sandbox as their long-term strategy.

In a nutshell, that's the how and why four film classics can be purchased on sale from Kino for under $50, while a UHD(!) of Little Darlings lists for $60 and can secure thousands of buyers at full price. Of course, many of us want to own them all given the fear at some point in the not too distant future we won't be able to buy them, never mind afford the cost.

To answer your question, of course it's too bad it won't last, but then again, what does?

[koberulz]

You have your cause and effect backwards. Limited editions aren't killing movie collecting, the death of movie collecting is leading to the limited edition business model.

[drush9999]

I've not had much issue getting standard versions recently, so not worried about a Limited Edition with tat being the only option yet, which I don't mind for old favourites.

I agree with a previous poster on another page that the likes of Criterion/Radiance/Indicator have the best happy medium model. The latter two usually have standard editions too.

[Driver78]

Originally Posted by koberulz

You have your cause and effect backwards. Limited editions aren't killing movie collecting, the death of movie collecting is leading to the limited edition business model.

This. The remaining slice of the physical media-supporting pie is largely made up of rabid enthusiasts who eat up collectibles and pretty much anything that even smells premium. Just a tiny fraction of that pie is people who don't care about presentation and wouldn't even mind if discs came in paper sleeves. Of course, not everything needs a super duper deluxe box with multiple discs and coffee table books - and we still have plenty of releases coming out that are just a disc and digital code, mostly from the majors, that should satisfy bargain hunters during sales. If the cost of keeping physical media alive is paying more, keep me signed up.

[apricissimus]

Honest question: For people who collect this stuff, what do you actually do with your Back to the Future hoverboard, and your Fargo wood chipper snow globe, etc.?

I don't seek out this stuff, but if I ended up with it somehow, I think it would immediately go in the trash.

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by apricissimus

I don't seek out this stuff, but if I ended up with it somehow, I think it would immediately go in the trash.

Well that's just dumb. The one time I ended up with tat was a James Bond set that came with a model Aston Martin or something (it was the cheapest way to get all the movies, somehow). I threw it on eBay and made back a chunk of my money.

[JMW85]

For me, this IS “the hobby”. Unlike many here who own thousands of movies, I only have a few hundred. Many are my absolute favourites, but I also have several of the collectors sets because they are good product and fun to collect. For example, Carlitos Way is a good movie but I don’t love it. If it was only available on the cheap studio release I wouldn’t own it, but the Arrow box set adds an extra level of interest that adds to the movie watching experience so I own it for that reason. You can buy lots of Kino titles for cheap because they ARE cheap, they are good if you like quantity over quality.

[jmilo61]

Originally Posted by koberulz

You have your cause and effect backwards. Limited editions aren't killing movie collecting, the death of movie collecting is leading to the limited edition business model.

I think this is a fair point.

I'd also lean towards being more worried about the labels who are depending on the expensive limited editions than labels like Kino.

A label who's seemingly thriving putting out tons of reasonably priced, simpler product seems better positioned to be immune from the bottom dropping out of the limited edition model. And the LE model dropping out seems more likely to happen sooner than people passing on decent, affordable product.

I also get a little annoyed by the constant complaints about the expense of the limited editions. Mainly because in most cases (though I understand not always) labels are putting a more reasonably priced standard edition out simultaneously.

People finding whatever combo of chipboard box/book/poster/artcards that are included in a LE not worth the extra $15-$20 the label is charging for it is fine and reasonable. Too often though people throw out a "$50 for a single movie is ridiculous" comment that completely ignores that there's a $25-$30 standard edition also available. And with a little patience that standard edition could be had for $15-$20 on sale a few months later.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by jmilo61

I think this is a fair point.
I'd also lean towards being more worried about the labels who are depending on the expensive limited editions than labels like Kino.

That is definitely something I have been alluding to here and I see the forecast the same way, only I also worry about it taking down all the labels if the Limited Edition or oversaturation ultimately pushes buyers out of the hobby too much, too soon. But you are right about the boutique labels falling by the wayside at some point because collectors can become very choosy after awhile and by default not finding much they want/need anymore. At some point the Boutique LE labels may run out of desirable titles to all but the most narrowcasted of collectors and that can dry up fast.

I also agree with the other poster who mentioned that this current state of collector mentality merchandising often superseding the inherent quality of the films themselves was probably established as a way to counteract the downturn in physical media sales. In that sense then we can see the collector demographic baiting as something of a savior for the hobby rather than its ultimate death knell. I had not considered it, but the sales figures bear this out and confirm what many enthusiasts continue to deem the present day "golden age of the hobby." It's still a slippery slope though and I would hate to think that labels like Shout are helping to subsidize labels like KINO and Criterion. An interesting discussion regardless!

[jzbadblood]

I buy the big special editions for movies I love or am excited enough about that I think I'd regret not getting it. For instance, I had never seen Cemetery Man, but I needed that big deluxe set because I thought I would love it. I did. Same with A Blade in the Dark. Most blind buys like Arrow slashers or stuff like that I'll grab the standard for way cheaper later. Even if I absolutely love the movie I never feel too bad not having the slip.

It's a matter of controlling the FOMO. Unless you've got unlimited resources you can't get every LE and boxset that comes out. To me that's the hobby. Building the collection the best way you can and enjoy getting a deal. Slipless standards for under $15 have their place as does spending that extra money on the big Dawn of the Dead 4K set when pre-orders went up.

Texas Chainsaw Massacre is one of my favorites of all time, but I didn't love the art on the Second Sight so I got the standard significantly cheaper. Didn't regret it. One I did skip out on was the slip for Cannibal Holocaust from 88. I kind of regret that, but when the Grindhouse version comes out I'll get their big edition and be happy with having that and the better disc from 88.

[Driver78]

In addition to standard vs Deluxe editions, which ideally should always be day & date, studios should have "tiered" releases where someone who only wants the film should be able to get just the film and only pay like $12-15 for that (more if it's a 4K, obviously). They wouldn't get the fancy packaging, swag or any other "enhancement" that makes up a Deluxe release - just the disc and regular generic packaging. I think a lot of people would be very happy with that model. Forcing someone to buy a big box o' junk (if it's all that's available), if they don't want it, is kind of anti-consumer. Thankfully, there's almost always a cheaper standard edition down the road for those that just want the film and don't mind waiting a bit.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by apricissimus

Honest question: For people who collect this stuff, what do you actually do with your Back to the Future hoverboard, and your Fargo wood chipper snow globe, etc.?

I don't seek out this stuff, but if I ended up with it somehow, I think it would immediately go in the trash.

That kind of stuff just stays with the original packaging, if possible. My main point of attraction for special sets is mostly about the way a label uses original theatrical art on the packaging, which helps for a nice display piece on my desk. For example, Severin has a talent for really making gorgeous looking boxes for collections such as DANZA MACABRA Vol. 1 or the CHRISTOPHER LEE COLLECTION Vol. 1. The art department at Severin is definitely on the ball when it comes to enhancing the overall package with art.

That's about it when it comes to surface appeal, but in terms of extras, keep the hoverboard and snow globes and music boxes and any other trinkets that are essentially worthless and instead give me more on disc extras or a music CD or a bonus movie or a well curated book/booklet.

[Colonel Blimp]

Yeah, there are multiple arguments about the long-term direction of movie collecting overall.

#1 - limited 'boutique' editions turn it into a niche hobby that turns off mainstream movie fans and overall purchases decline.

#2 - limited editions give mainstream purchasers a next step to grow their collections and so it motivates growth and investment.

#3 - limited editions become so important to the costs of boutique distributors that higher prices eventually price out the entry point for beginner collectors.

#4 - standard editions keep people motivated and the more expensive releases are a growth industry to drive FOMO but not lose customers overall.

#5 - boutique editions direct purchasers to specific movies and reduce widespread interest in everything else, so overall sales decrease even as boutiques climb.

#6 - boutique editions curate a selection of specific titles that give customers a starting sample of high-end products and from that they can figure out what they actually like, and over time that increases overall sales.

#7 - non-movie content of the boutique editions seems more and more silly and drives away the more movie-focused customers

#8 - non-movie content gives added value to the investment and makes it more of a collecting experience

#9 - any hobby is always reliant on the higher-end collectors to create a sense of excitement and exclusivity.

#10 - hobbies that rely on higher-end items inevitably dissolve into gatekeeping and niches.

So all, some, or none of those might come true.

[Professor Echo]

^^^
Thanks, Colonel. Just about everything I've been trying to convey over multiple posts and multiple pages. Perfect summation. Care to do my taxes and write my resume for me?

[Member-839946]

Originally Posted by koberulz

Well that's just dumb. The one time I ended up with tat was a James Bond set that came with a model Aston Martin or something (it was the cheapest way to get all the movies, somehow). I threw it on eBay and made back a chunk of my money.

I make enough that this isn't worth the trouble. It's just cheap trash. It has to be, to maintain the profit margin. I don't want it and don't want to bother with eBay, listing it for sale, packaging it, dealing with complaints / frauds / returns, etc.

[prkchopexpress]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Relax, use proper punctuation and try to follow the thread before having a conniption. Nobody is decrying “Special Editions,“ just aspects that now define the term. People complaining about shipping issues and scratches on message boards are hardly ruining the hobby.

Originally Posted by Neutron82

I never said it was but I'm trying to offer solutions, it seems like you're more content on complaining and shooting everything down

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Well, that is not my intention, but I can see why you think that based on my posts. To be honest, I wish your idea was foolproof as then I wouldn’t have so much FOMO on Limited Editions I can’t immediately afford.

I understand this thread is skewing negative by its very title and context, but it comes from a genuine concern that all these hyperbolic releases could bring the hobby crashing down. I don’t want that to happen, but it worries me because the pattern is becoming firmly established. The world of collectors and “collectibles” can prove very fickle and bring down the whole hobby as we see with baseball cards and comic books being on a downturn right now. Too much of a good thing can happen with any hobby.

you created the thread and title, lol. and you keep the negativity going by shooting down everything. you say you decry the limited model, but then just repeat the nonsense of FOMO.

Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp

Yeah, there are multiple arguments about the long-term direction of movie collecting overall.

[Show spoiler]#1 - limited 'boutique' editions turn it into a niche hobby that turns off mainstream movie fans and overall purchases decline.

#2 - limited editions give mainstream purchasers a next step to grow their collections and so it motivates growth and investment.

#3 - limited editions become so important to the costs of boutique distributors that higher prices eventually price out the entry point for beginner collectors.

#4 - standard editions keep people motivated and the more expensive releases are a growth industry to drive FOMO but not lose customers overall.

#5 - boutique editions direct purchasers to specific movies and reduce widespread interest in everything else, so overall sales decrease even as boutiques climb.

#6 - boutique editions curate a selection of specific titles that give customers a starting sample of high-end products and from that they can figure out what they actually like, and over time that increases overall sales.

#7 - non-movie content of the boutique editions seems more and more silly and drives away the more movie-focused customers

#8 - non-movie content gives added value to the investment and makes it more of a collecting experience

#9 - any hobby is always reliant on the higher-end collectors to create a sense of excitement and exclusivity.

#10 - hobbies that rely on higher-end items inevitably dissolve into gatekeeping and niches.

So all, some, or none of those might come true.

you make some interesting points, but ignore others. when people buy titles only to exploit scarcity, that prices new people out as well. but no one acts like that is a problem in the long term. because them some of you (not you specifically, but the flippers) would have to stop patting themselves on the back and pretending theyre clever for gouging someone for more money because they didnt know about every release as soon as it comes out. i missed out recently on that radiance planet of the vampires. you never know what is going to sell. i dont think radiance thought it would sell 5000 so fast. and as i have said numerous times, reprint everything. make so money copies available that every scalper and flipper loses money. we wouldnt this issue if print runs were increased. but i can understand a label being hesitant as the number of brick and mortar stores decreases.

or the people who resell the extra discs (inferior format) to try and pay for releases. is this not why some labels have stopped offering combo packs?

what about the consumer who wants to find information on a title and if it is worth upgrading? then they come in a thread and the same five people complain about how (antecdotally and exaggerated) every disc from a label is scratched after having to spend five pages of a thread only seeing shipping updates? ive been a collector for 25 years, and ive given trying to find information in a thread on a new release.

we havent mentioned the people who blast a release before even seeing it and just repeat “this company is bad AGAIN” ad nauseam. or people who want to start email campaigns. or even those demanding replacement discs because of an error that NO ONE EVEN NOTICED FOR EIGHT YEARS.

there are more releases and sales every month than most of us can keep up with. it sucks to have to pick choose and not be able to just get everything i want that comes out. but it is a nice problem to have.

prices going up feels like a necessary evil, because 4K discs do cost more money to produce. but if that means a label will last longer, and can take more chances and acquire more titles, i dont know how that isnt a good trade off.