On The Fence

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by cyborgen

Its true that if you took a snapshot today of the state of Blu-Ray, it is at a disadvantage because of the delays... and the press reflects it. But this will correct itself in the coming months.

The typical press and the majority of the blogs likes sensational stories and stories of underdogs. Sensational stories: "PS3 costs US$599" or "internet forum hates PS3 for imposing Blu-ray drives on them". Underdog stories : "Wii is selling out".

Just news.google.com and look for news items on Blu-ray and PS3 (or playstation 3) and you'll see the biased picture. VERY FEW press would have anything good to report about Blu-ray or the PS3.


fuad

[cyborgen]

Originally Posted by JTK

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=4025

^^ At that rate, HD-DVD will soon finally be dead and pointless "arguments" like these can finally be at an end.

Are you guys ready for the HVD

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/590/590428p1.html

The drives can hold from 200GB now to a projected 1.6TB by 2010.Because the disc doesn't need to spin, this will allow for tremendous read speeds. To increase the read speed in a ROM drive, CD or DVD, the disc must be spun faster. CD-ROM speed is limited by the fact that the disks would literally tear apart spinning at very high speeds. Optware doesn't expect to have HVD on the market for consumers until 2007 at the earliest

2007 ?! ... hey that's in 3 weeks ROFL

[JTK]

Originally Posted by cyborgen

Are you guys ready for the HVD

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/590/590428p1.html


2007 ?! ... hey that's in 3 weeks ROFL

Are you ready to see what it's going to cost?

[cyborgen]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

The typical press and the majority of the blogs likes sensational stories and stories of underdogs. Sensational stories: "PS3 costs US$599" or "internet forum hates PS3 for imposing Blu-ray drives on them". Underdog stories : "Wii is selling out".

Just news.google.com and look for news items on Blu-ray and PS3 (or playstation 3) and you'll see the biased picture. VERY FEW press would have anything good to report about Blu-ray or the PS3.

fuad

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/54532.html
Here's another doomsayer.. and his arguments ( Rob Enderle again !)

Did Sony Kill Blu-ray?
This is more of a short update, but if you are watching PS3 sales , you know that the company will have a hard time hitting 600,000 units sold by year end, and there are already rumors that it may have to recall some of the initial systems for problems.

This follows battery and camera recalls that have many questioning Sony's ability to execute right now. Sony just experienced an executive shake-up that may put the company in better shape. When a company has as many problems as it had over the last 12 months, corporate should -- and generally does -- take the majority of the blame.

The interesting thing is that when Microsoft and Sony came down on opposite sides, many assumed that Microsoft wouldn't even get a vote. No one anticipated that simply by creating a low cost HD DVD accessory, it could change that dynamic dramatically. It shouldn't have been a surprise, given that those of us who thought Blu-ray would initially win believed it because of projected PS3 sales -- and PS3 should have created a decisive win for Sony and Blu-ray.

Unfortunately, there were massive production problems and cost overruns, and Sony could only get a fraction of the systems into the market channel. As a result, Microsoft is projected to have 10 million Xbox 360s by the end of this year, against Sony's 600,000 PS3s. If Microsoft has just a 20 percent attach rate for its US$200 drive -- which is selling out, by the way -- it will have nearly 4x the number of HD DVD drives in consumer hands.
If you think about it, Sony also ends the year behind Nintendo , which is expected to sell around 1 million Wii game systems. This suggests that while the PS3 should have assured the success of Blu-ray, Blu-ray may have assured the failure of the PS3 -- at least for 2006. Now that is just weird.

Is Rob Enderle a Microsoft employee... shareholder ? He's biased against Sony and very volubile !!

Check this out:
http://www.enderlegroup.com/

This explains it !!!!!!... LOLOLOLOL check this out ROFL:
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/08/11/180256

... a blackbelt in FUD

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative (and vague) information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe misinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry and has since been used more broadly. FUD is a manifestation of the appeal to fear.

I'd love to have his payback from M$ though .... unfortunately he's going to damage Blu-ray.

[JTK]

FUD is a well known tactic of MS's.

It's almost a hallmark and trademark of theirs if you know anything about their business dealings in the PC market for the last oh...20 years or so?

This may be new territory for AV and HT enthusiasts, but it's old hat for anyone that has any connections or knowledge to the PC realm.

[theknub]

cyborgen... what are you doing here at this point? every story you have posted is doom and gloom yet not backed with factual data. every post has been opinion stories to date. do you have anything backed with hard, factual, numbers? i haven't seen a post with them. every time we disprove your post, you bring up a new topic that has nothing to do with the discussion (see hvd and game consoles). if you wish to post, please feel free. however, we don't need FUD spread here. we gladly acknowledge shortcomings if proven/backed appropriately. however, opinion articles about how the world is about to end and that sony did this and that are profoundly dumb and shortsighted to say the least.

so at this point, please leave or post something of true relevance.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by theknub

cyborgen... what are you doing here at this point? every story you have posted is doom and gloom yet not backed with factual data. every post has been opinion stories to date. do you have anything backed with hard, factual, numbers? i haven't seen a post with them. every time we disprove your post, you bring up a new topic that has nothing to do with the discussion (see hvd and game consoles). if you wish to post, please feel free. however, we don't need FUD spread here. we gladly acknowledge shortcomings if proven/backed appropriately. however, opinion articles about how the world is about to end and that sony did this and that are profoundly dumb and shortsighted to say the least.

so at this point, please leave or post something of true relevance.

Hear, hear.

[cyborgen]

Originally Posted by theknub

cyborgen... what are you doing here at this point? every story you have posted is doom and gloom yet not backed with factual data. every post has been opinion stories to date. do you have anything backed with hard, factual, numbers? i haven't seen a post with them. every time we disprove your post, you bring up a new topic that has nothing to do with the discussion (see hvd and game consoles). if you wish to post, please feel free. however, we don't need FUD spread here. we gladly acknowledge shortcomings if proven/backed appropriately. however, opinion articles about how the world is about to end and that sony did this and that are profoundly dumb and shortsighted to say the least.

so at this point, please leave or post something of true relevance.

This technology is relatively new, shortsighted is the best anybody can do. I'm not making stuff up, this is current. Do you have some numbers ?

Rob Enderle is obviously sold and biased towards HD-DVD (microsoft, Toshiba). And the web is saturated with blu-ray death messages. Where is the good news about blu-ray. Its expensive and takes time coming to market... and my favorite film (fifth element) was a sucky transfer to BD.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/5647/53/

These are hard times for blu-ray... hope 2007 fixes things ! Like the first poster... I'm sitting on the fence waiting for the smoke to clear !

[theknub]

numbers to refute what? there are plenty of numbers out there. for instance, the 50,000 units of hd-dvd players sold worldwide. wow, already exceeded that in the ps3 just in the US let alone standalone players. the thing is, you have provided no backing to your arguments.

these may be hard time for BR, but even harder with hd-dvd given the lack of studio support, lack of CE, buggy players, and delayed players.

a lot of us here see the writing on the wall. while not absolute, it's as close as it gets right now.

[Zvi]

Originally Posted by cyborgen

Rob Enderle is obviously sold and biased towards HD-DVD (microsoft, Toshiba).

So are you.

Originally Posted by cyborgen

And the web is saturated with blu-ray death messages.

And it is filled also with images and predictions about the end of days and Armageddon. about the same credibility...

Originally Posted by cyborgen

Where is the good news about blu-ray. Its expensive and takes time coming to market... and my favorite film (fifth element) was a sucky transfer to BD.

So, go ahead and buy HD DVD and be happy. It's cheap (for stripped down players at least), 1080p player will cost U less on BD BTW. They don't have Fifth element At all, so it won't upset U. And HD DVD came to market few month before BD.
What do U want here spreading FUD from most biased and anti-BD sites? If you claim to be on the fence and looking for the info why do you have to collect all the anti-bd crap on the net and post here?

[cyborgen]

Originally Posted by Zvi

What do U want here spreading FUD from most biased and anti-BD sites? If you claim to be on the fence and looking for the info why do you have to collect all the anti-bd crap on the net and post here?

Its called de-bunking... care to start

Maybe we'll all get off the fence !

[Zvi]

Originally Posted by cyborgen

Its called de-bunking... care to start

Spreading FUD and misinformation on purpose, especially on the forum which is dedicated the subject UR spreading misinformation and FUD about is called trolling, not debunking.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by theknub

cyborgen... what are you doing here at this point? every story you have posted is doom and gloom yet not backed with factual data.

We have people posting links, to blog pieces, about articles, about the reaction to a survey about postings.

Geez, how more solid factual data do you need?!

But, it would be foolish to think all this negativism won't hurt. But, it's scorched earth. Spewing venom at BD may hurt BD, but it doesn't do a thing to convince people to buy HD DVD. It may do more harm than good, because people don't generally rush out and purchase products from companies involved in negative attacks.

And when something is presented without any balance. A perfect storm for one side. People know instinctively it is marketing NOT analysis.

Gary

[Jim L]

I have been watching this thread for a while.

I think it's time to call it what it is.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

We have people posting links, to blog pieces, about articles, about the reaction to a survey about postings.

Geez, how more solid factual data do you need?!

But, it would be foolish to think all this negativism won't hurt. But, it's scorched earth. Spewing venom at BD may hurt BD, but it doesn't do a thing to convince people to buy HD DVD. It may do more harm than good, because people don't generally rush out and purchase products from companies involved in negative attacks.

And when something is presented without any balance. A perfect storm for one side. People know instinctively it is marketing NOT analysis.

Gary

Too right using negative tactics will make both companies look bad, more often than not, it's the company/organisation using negative tactics that come off worse in the long run. Once the market has settled down and facts are released from independent sources, most of the rubbish that they release about the opponent is proved wrong and people won't trust them again.

While this is not politics,in the past, the negative tactics used by US and UK governments worked in the short-term they got the war with Iraq they were looking for, but a few years later, all of those 'facts' about Iraq and the lies they spewed have come back to bite them in the arse. The Reps just lost both houses, and the Labour Party is going to lose the next general election here in the UK. All because they lost the trust of the people, back on topic now. If Toshiba/MS continually release crap about BD, people will eventually see through it and at that point they will no longer trust either company.

If the mods want to edit/remove this post I would understand, but all I am trying to do is draw a few parallels with other aspects of life.

[cyborgen]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

The typical press and the majority of the blogs likes sensational stories and stories of underdogs. Sensational stories: "PS3 costs US$599" or "internet forum hates PS3 for imposing Blu-ray drives on them". Underdog stories : "Wii is selling out".

Just news.google.com and look for news items on Blu-ray and PS3 (or playstation 3) and you'll see the biased picture. VERY FEW press would have anything good to report about Blu-ray or the PS3.
fuad

That is precisely my point. Which one of these reasons would best explain the situation:

Production
Distribution
Quality
Technology
Timing
Pricing
Management
Organization
Planning
All of the above
or pure FUD from Toshiba and Microsoft

At this point in time BD should be a glowing success.... is it ?

.... simple questions, is 'I am Troll' the answer

This is a fairly emotional subject for many here, perhaps not the best place to discuss. At stake is hard earned $$$ paying for technology exposed to heavy market pressures. Microsoft is dumping cheap HD-DVD players on the market that do the hi-def job, that is definitely going to hurt.

.... time will tell

[Sony_Blue-Ray]

Anyways I dont even pay attention to the F.U.D. anymore. What I do pay attention to is hard facts and the fact of the matter is Blu-Ray is the better format plain and simple. What I dont understand is how people can complain about Blu-Ray being more expensive than HD-DVD? When I look at HD-DVD I see somthing that isnt Finished. A disc that only gets 6 gig more than DVD9 at (one layer) but costs 1 dollar less in only some cases than a disc that gives us 16 gig more than DVD9. So where do you see the deal at? You could spend 1 dollar less on every disc or spend one dollar more and get an extra 10 gig. HD-DVD just seems like an incomplete Blu-Ray disc.

Just picked up a Copy of Kung Fu Hustle on Blu-Ray at Best Buy for $24.99

I love this movie its to funny and now also very impressive!

[Josh]

cyborgen is taking a 90 timeout, so please don't respond to any of his/her posts and continue the discussion.

[theknub]

^^gracias mi amigo

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by cyborgen

That is precisely my point. Which one of these reasons would best explain the situation:

Production

You do realize that as time moves on further from the first time the Samsung player launched, the more these points you just mentioned makes no sense?

If you're talking about the production of the players, there are more players from several CEs than for HD-DVD, and that's not counting the PS3 and the 360 add-on.

If you're talking about the discs, well lots of BD25 out there and BD50s too. In fact, lots of BD50s coming down the pipeline.

Distribution

Walmart: PS3, Samsung and the Philips player. It can't get any basic then that. Fact is neither HD optical format is ready yet for mass consumer. But BD is up and running more than HD-DVD fanatics care to admit.

Quality

The quality is there. Be industrious. Go do your homework and checkout the many demos in the stores.

Technology

The video codec technology on both sides are the same. The only limiting factor so far for BD is implementation of Picture-in-Picture and BD-Java, but they are also slowly working on that. HD-DVD's limiting factor is read bandwith and capacity, none of which can be solved by updating players to the Nth gen.

Timing

Now is the time to start. More HDTVs can be had for cheaper these days.

Pricing

This is still an early adopter's game. HD-DVD got their HD-A2. BD got their PS3. The 360 add-on? Only if you have a 360 first.

Management

Theoretically it is easier to manage a war when you have two heads (Microsoft and Toshiba) instead of many. But the many here includes CE manufacturers and studios. Universal is in for the ride and not managing; it is an anomaly.

Organization

The DVD Forum is bigger than the BDA. But the BDA is bigger than the HD-DVD Group.

Planning

I'm sure Toshiba is planning a 3rd gen right now. I don't think MS will release a 360 with HDMI output and a built-in HD-DVD drive.

On the other hand, Samsung, Pioneer and Sony are already planning for a 2nd gen players. First gen players from other CEs are expected. And the PS3 is future-proofed to the best of its ability.

All of the above
or pure FUD from Toshiba and Microsoft

The latter. Take a look at the Cymphony report. Is that even a credible one? Not only that, it only takes into account the vibe of the net up to the date of the release of the PS3 and not after. It'd be interesting if somebody paid Cymphony to do another report now.

At this point in time BD should be a glowing success.... is it ?

Not yet.

.... simple questions, is 'I am Troll' the answer

The answer lies in how you can easily dig up bad reports for BD but not good ones. Would that make you a troll?

Trust me when I say you've got better choices at spending your time than being here.

This is a fairly emotional subject for many here, perhaps not the best place to discuss. At stake is hard earned $$$ paying for technology exposed to heavy market pressures.

There is no heavy market pressure. This is an early adopter game. The only pressure is from hard-core gamers for the PS3.

Microsoft is dumping cheap HD-DVD players on the market that do the hi-def job, that is definitely going to hurt.

Microsoft is dumping their cheaper 360 on the Japanese and they are still not buying; now THAT really hurt.

.... time will tell

Indeed.

Not to say that you don't have the right to your opinion but if your opinion is based solely on press releases and opinion articles that you've read off the web, then I think you should be OFF the FENCE and support HD-DVD. If you choose to believe those articles, jump off the fence and support the format of your choice. Good luck on that.


fuad