Napoléon 4K UHD (1927) Abel Gance - Grande Version • Potemkine. pre-order

[Jackie Scanlon]

Originally Posted by Doomhunter

Attachment 318296

I was gonna do a standard Scanners gif, but Calvin sneezing is much more classy.

[monks19]

Does anyone know more about this edition ? Will it be a steelbook or be contained in a special box set (from Potemkine, like they did in the past for their edition of Nosferatu, Haxan, Metropolis, War and Peace, stc) ?

Sorry to ask, but I couldn't find the information at all (not even on Potemline's website). Thanks in advance if you have the information.

[Togusa]

Originally Posted by monks19

Does anyone know more about this edition ? Will it be a steelbook or be contained in a special box set (from Potemkine, like they did in the past for their edition of Nosferatu, Haxan, Metropolis, War and Peace, stc) ?

Sorry to ask, but I couldn't find the information at all (not even on Potemline's website). Thanks in advance if you have the information.

Hello, on Amazon :

Édition collector
Grande version restaurée
Boîtier Digipack 5 volets avec boîte en carton rigide
Contient :
- 2 4K Ultra HD
- 3 Blu-ray
- le livre "Napoléon vu par Abel Gance", des éditions La Table Ronde (2024, 312 pages)
- un livret avec la liste des musiques utilisées pour la bande son

Source : https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B0FL8NBLRS/ref ... C91&sr=1-4

[Mariah007]

and still no artwork revealed, piss off!

[Hedrox]

That is a pretty ridiculous price. Can't be because of the book, because the BD set also comes with it and it's like €52 cheaper.

Now I'm really curious to see the packaging on the 4K.

[PullBackCamera]

100 euros. That's a... choice. Throw in the blurry edges and, whilst the scan on this does look a little better, I'll just stick with my BFI release thanks v much.

[ryanhgg]

There is, however, one major difference between this and the BFI disc, beyond the simple scan: the film's editing is completely different.

To summarize briefly:
During filming, Abel Gance used several cameras. During editing, he created two separate negatives: an Opéra negative and an Apollo negative.

Opéra version:
Shown about ten times at the Paris Opera.
Its length varies from 3 hours 47 minutes to 4 hours 30 minutes, as Gance perfected the editing between each screening.

Apollo version:
Shown only twice, in test screenings for the press and theater operators.
During its first screening, it lasted 9 hours and 40 minutes, then was slightly shortened by Gance to 9 hours and 30 minutes for the second.
From this version, he created the Grande Version, lasting approximately 7 hours, considered the director's cut of the film.

Over time, the two original negatives (Opéra and Apollo) were lost. The film has therefore been reconstructed and restored several times. During the reconstruction carried out by the Cinémathèque Française, it was discovered that the Apollo version was not simply a longer version of the Opéra, but a completely different film: the framing, rhythm, editing, and even Gance's artistic intentions varied between the two versions.

Unfortunately, all previous restorations, including Kevin Brownlow's Blu-ray edition released by the BFI, mix elements from both negatives.
Only Georges Mourier's restoration, carried out by the Cinémathèque française, preserves the original edit.

The blurred edges are a deliberate choice. Mourier was able to identify the projectors used during the screening of the Grande Version thanks to a period photo found in the Cinémathèque archives. The team tracked down these models, projected blank film to analyze the contours, and then digitally recreated the original projection frames to apply them to the film.

Here is a comparison between the third reconstruction/restoration of the film carried out by Kevin Brownlow (BFI Blu-ray) and the reconstruction/restoration carried out by Georges Mourier (Potemkine Blu-ray) on the pillow fight scene:

Napoléon vu par Abel Gance (1927) - Comparaison - Scène de la bataille de polochon - YouTube

[Hedrox]

Thanks for the info. The link isn't formatted properly.

Napoléon vu par Abel Gance (1927) - Comparaison - Scène de la bataille de polochon - YouTube

[koberulz]

Originally Posted by Hedrox

The link isn't formatted properly.

This is Ryan's only post, anti-spam measures are likely preventing him from posting links.

[PullBackCamera]

Originally Posted by ryanhgg

During the reconstruction carried out by the Cinémathèque Française, it was discovered that the Apollo version was not simply a longer version of the Opéra, but a completely different film: the framing, rhythm, editing, and even Gance's artistic intentions varied between the two versions.

Okay, thanks. Interesting. Watched the comparison. It uses many alternate takes but wouldn't call it a different film. There is quite a lot of extra footage and it would certainly be nice to see it - allowing for differences in frame rate it seems there's about an hour of extra footage in this new restoration overall?

I must say it's frustrating that Brownlow wasn't included in the process, and/or that the new material wasn't provided to him decades ago. I wonder where it came from and how they can be so certain which version is which? Did they find a complete print or negative of this 'Grande' edit?

Originally Posted by ryanhgg

The blurred edges are a deliberate choice.

It's obviously a choice, but a very stupid one. Not using the Carl Davis score another dubious decision. And the price is still way too high, especially considering it'll be coming to Netflix soon. I think I'll wait for that. Even with all the extra footage it's not going to beat my memory of seeing the Brownlow restoration at the Royal Festival Hall with a full orchestra and three synchronised 35mm projectors.

[Doomhunter]

Wouldn’t the Carl Davis score be too short for the longer version?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Doomhunter

Wouldn’t the Carl Davis score be too short for the longer version?

About an hour short and in a different speed (tempo). You could change the tempo without changing the pitch in digital but if the sequences are edited slightly different it wouldn't match exactly or even go totally offbase.



About the framing. I cobbled up the Silent format diagram.




I looked for one shot that looked to be the same (same angle/take). This is about as close I saw (it still a frame off, the mouth moves).



The CF seems is not only "shaded" but slightly windowboxed a little, so those ^ are at the same image size to properly compare.


If the BFI framing is close to the Camera Aperure (It doesn't show round edges but it could be close) this is with the overlay on both. BFI would be showing near what the camera exposed and CF would be showing near what the Projector should show.



Brightened so show more clearly:




On the other hand if the BFI framing is already the silent Projector Aperture instead, with the overlay on both, CF would be showing more nearly what some cropping on projection would show, but seems still within allowance.



brightened so show more clearly.



What is peculiar to me the bit of "projectors of the era showed"

This is an example of projector gate:





and projector aperture plates:




Projector aperture metal plates go on front of the gate, between it and the lens, slightly smaller than the gate, to mask and shape the image on screen (darkening spillage too) to the Projector Aperture. Then black curtains/masking creates the hard edge on the final shape. So this softer edge, was because they didn't use a projector metal plate, the projector gate being smaller than the camera gate/aperture, or they used a projector plate but it was farther away from the gate (becoming out of focus). But then, they didn't have or use curtains or masking on screens and just threw the projected image on the screen (like this), not filling the screen?

[PullBackCamera]

Originally Posted by Doomhunter

Wouldn’t the Carl Davis score be too short for the longer version?

The Carl Davis score has been adapted numerous times over the years, as cuts of the film have grown longer. it would be quite possible to make it fit again (and reports are that the new French score is nowhere near as good).

[Deciazulado]

I made a second set.

As before I made the images within the framings the same size, by overlaying them, then separating them sideways horizontally, since they would be the same in the 35mm film before any matting or cropping (well if it's the same original which they could be not). In this case you can see the left image matting has a similar bottom but shows less top.

So when I overlayed the apertures diagram I vertically displaced the left one to center the image on the "frame" as any projectionist would do on a screen.

After a format is set up on a theater, the projectionist can only modify the image two ways: Make the image sharp or blurry with the Focus knob, and vertically center the image
with the Frame knob.

This is what I've done here. Projector aperture in red.

As the BFI has the most image, assuming again that's close to the Camera Aperture:


On the other hand if BFI framing corresponded to the Projector Aperture:


These are assumptions of what's on the discs/video frames, the only way to be certain would be to compare the video images to actual frames showing sprockets to compare dimensions, like these from the International Federation of Film Archives' Journal of Film Preservation April issue (very good articles, specially to me one about the accuracy of color in film scans and preservation (in simple words: Not accurate/not archival yet) that gave me information I've been looking for a while: Technicolor's color gamut as it compares to UHD-HDR/modern TV's.

[aladdin123]

Originally Posted by PullBackCamera

It's obviously a choice, but a very stupid one.

Why, if it's how the film looked originally?

[PullBackCamera]

Originally Posted by aladdin123

Why, if it's how the film looked originally?

Triptych aside, there's nothing technically unique or special about Napoleon compared to any other Academy ratio 35mm film shot in the 20s or 30s. And there is an established method for presenting such films on home video - ie. not with a black border on all four sides of the frame and blurred edges to mimic a photograph of one projector on one particular night that appears to have been missing a plate. It's beyond ludicrous.

[Deciazulado]

I was looking about projector apertures on silent film, at that time probably every company and every theater projected things a litle bit different from each other and what we would call "standard" and one projectionist site says that from ~1911 it was reduced. How or if this applies to France and their projection (after all they invented projection to the public and they'd been doing it for 3o years by then) I don't know, but I'd already wondered if they were using a smaller gate or plaque, tho the fair amount of blurring and rounded corners seemed peculiar.

This "reduced aperture" 's specs is basically the maximum crop allowed in projection (the gold segmented lines in the diagrams),
down from the 18 x 24mm 1.33 red Projector Aperture



to



>1911
0.680” x 0.906” 1.33, or 17.26mm x 23.02mm

which is 96% of 18 x 24mm 1.33

[SpacemanDoug]

So is it essentially the director's cut that's being released now?

I'd assume so because of the 428 minute runtime and having the intended editing.

[TheBondFan]

[McCrutchy]

Potemkine's website says this has DTS-HD MA 5.1 and 2.0 audio tracks, French intertitles and English subtitles. Sometimes, their site can get specifications wrong, but this is their own release and their site is the only one with the huge image of the release right now:

Originally Posted by Potemkine

[Show spoiler]Contenu et Bonus
Édition collector
Grande version restaurée
Boîtier Digipack 5 volets avec boîte en carton rigide
Contient :
- 2 4K Ultra HD
- 3 Blu-ray
- le livre "Napoléon vu par Abel Gance", des éditions La Table Ronde (2024, 312 pages)
- un livret avec la liste des musiques utilisées pour la bande son

"Autour de Napoléon", documentaire de Jean Arroy sur la prise de vue du film (1926, 60')
"La Reconstruction du film", documentaire réalisé par Georges Mourier, directeur de la reconstruction et de la restauration du film (2025)
Analyse de séquences par Élodie Tamayo (2025)
"Le Traitement de l'Histoire par Abel Gance" : entretien avec Élodie Tamayo (2025)
"Les Différentes représentations de Napoléon au cinéma" (2025)

Contents and Bonuses
Collector's Edition
Large Restored Version
5-Panel Digipack with Rigid Cardboard Box
Contains:
- 2 4K Ultra HD
- 3 Blu-rays
- The book "Napoleon as Seen by Abel Gance", published by La Table Ronde (2024, 312 pages)
- A booklet with a list of music used for the soundtrack

"Autour de Napoléon", a documentary by Jean Arroy on the making of the film (1926, 60 minutes)
"La Reconstruction du film", a documentary directed by Georges Mourier, director of the film's reconstruction and restoration (2025)
Sequence Analysis by Élodie Tamayo (2025)
"Le Traitement de l'Histoire par Abel Gance": Interview with Élodie Tamayo (2025)
"The Different Representations of Napoleon in Cinema" (2025)