Neo Film Noir 1961-2035 on blu-ray and 4K UHD

[kinotek]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Whether or not I answer your question depends on how you answer mine.
Explain to us why Germany's Black Gravel (1961) is considered a noir when
it's missing many of the essentials of classic 1940s and 1950s noir. Yet it's
universally regarded as a transitional film into neo noir. What makes it noir?
What makes it transitional? Do you know? Be advised that your answer is
not going to change my mind about it either way.

Well, my film knowledge is pretty wide-ranging (I'm a filmmaker myself, and have been at this game a loooong time), but I've never heard of Black Gravel. Not a big fan of German cinema, to be honest.

As for what makes something neo noir... As they say: I know it when I see it. But clearly you disagree. And that's fine. It's your thread, man, you do you. ;-)

That's the best I can give you. I'll leave it to others here to argue their case.

[Richard--W]

In last week's chat on the Film Noir Foundation, noir czar Eddie Muller
recommended the Nordic TV programs streaming on the MHz service.
So I'm going to binge watch The Bridge for starters.

This should take you straight to it:

Essential Nordic Noir

[NuXiaolin]

Originally Posted by kinotek

Well, my film knowledge is pretty wide-ranging (I'm a filmmaker myself, and have been at this game a loooong time), but I've never heard of Black Gravel. Not a big fan of German cinema, to be honest.

It's in one of the Radiance WORLD NOIR sets, I really should actually watch it, it's been on my shelf for months!

[koberulz]

I keep putting off watching anything German until I can speak the language, but it's also been months since I did any study. The enshittification of Duolingo has really messed things up for me.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by NuXiaolin

It's in one of the Radiance WORLD NOIR sets, I really should actually watch it, it's been on my shelf for months!

I watched it earlier this year. I thought it was generally okay but it felt like it dragged on longer than it needed to be.

[Richard--W]

A constantly developing genre, film noir began to push
against its own boundaries in the 1950s evolving into
Neo Noir, a larger canvas with a broader set of dynamics.
Hardboiled stories with an impending sense of doom, an
introspective darkness, fatally flawed characters with no
good choices, savage violence and the cruel twist of fate
are still present in Neo Noir, but private eyes, plodding cops,
hapless protagonists, femme fatales and the need for justice
to be served are not always present. Not every Neo Noir
dispenses with the stereotypes of traditional film noir.
Neo Noir is not the exact same thing as film noir.
There are significant differences.

[iaragorn1]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

In last week's chat on the Film Noir Foundation, noir czar Eddie Muller
recommended the Nordic TV programs streaming on the MHz service.
So I'm going to binge watch The Bridge for starters.

This should take you straight to it:

Essential Nordic Noir

Nordic Noir is pretty good IMHO.

The Bridge and The Killing were remade in the US and I thought they pretty well done. The Killing season one was very much like the original.

Arctic Circle is also very good/underrated and had a new season earlier this year.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by iaragorn1

Nordic Noir is pretty good IMHO.

The Bridge and The Killing were remade in the US and I thought they pretty well done. The Killing season one was very much like the original.

Arctic Circle is also very good/underrated and had a new season earlier this year.

I didn't know that.

I'm up to episode 5 of The Bridge and wishing the story would progress
faster. They're in no hurry in the Nordic realm. They have lots of time.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by iaragorn1

Nordic Noir is pretty good IMHO.

The Bridge and The Killing were remade in the US and I thought they pretty well done. The Killing season one was very much like the original.

Arctic Circle is also very good/underrated and had a new season earlier this year.

If you know of other links to neo noir let us know.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by kinotek

Well, my film knowledge is pretty wide-ranging (I'm a filmmaker myself, and have been at this game a loooong time), but I've never heard of Black Gravel. Not a big fan of German cinema, to be honest.

As for what makes something neo noir... As they say: I know it when I see it. But clearly you disagree. And that's fine. It's your thread, man, you do you. ;-)

That's the best I can give you. I'll leave it to others here to argue their case.

In that case, let's talk about The Sweet Smell of Success (1957), which
I see you do have.

It doesn't have a private eye, a femme fatal, a felony being committed, a
corrupt politician, amnesia nor even guns. Many of the elements of classic
film noir are missing.

Yet it is universally acknowledged as a classic film noir.

How come?

What makes it a noir?

[kinotek]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

In that case, let's talk about The Sweet Smell of Success (1957), which
I see you do have.

It doesn't have a private eye, a femme fatal, a felony being committed, a
corrupt politician, amnesia nor even guns. Many of the elements of classic
film noir are missing.

Yet it is universally acknowledged as a classic film noir.

How come?

What makes it a noir?

Good one. I agree that Sweet Smell of Success is a classic noir and is universally hailed as such. As to why... That’s a valid question. At first I was going to say the film is the perfect alchemy of morally compromised characters, hardboiled dialogue, urban setting, jazz score, and James Wong Howe’s amazing black and white cinematography—combining to create a film that couldn’t be anything but noir.

But then I got to thinking about those elements you say are missing, and I realized that, in fact, both Tony Curtis’ and Martin Milner’s characters are the patsies (doesn’t Curtis end up in the literal gutter at the end?), and Lancaster's J.J. Hunsecker could easily stand in for the classic femme fatale, especially if you acknowledge the (not entirely far-fetched) homoerotic overtones of the Hunsecker-Falco relationship. J.J. even ends up getting his comeuppance with the loss of his sister at the end.

And while there may not be any corrupt politicians or felonies committed, there’s enough moral corruption, blackmail, and frameups to more than make up for those deficits.

Just as crucially, there are no overwhelming elements from other genres—gangsters, car chases, shootouts, musical numbers, etc.—to tip the film out of the noir category. That’s not something that can be said for many of those other titles under discussion here.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. :-)

[DaBargainHunta]

I nominate the 1993 movie Deadfall. It checks all the boxes.

Alas, it's only available on Blu-ray in this Nic Cage 6-pack, which was at Walmart for a limited time and is long gone now.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by DaBargainHunta

I nominate the 1993 movie Deadfall. It checks all the boxes.

Alas, it's only available on Blu-ray in this Nic Cage 6-pack, which was at Walmart for a limited time and is long gone now.

I'll take your word for DEADFALL (1993) and put it in the OP.
There are region B editions as well, several in Germany.

[DaBargainHunta]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I'll take your word for DEADFALL (1993) and put it in the OP.
There are region B editions as well, several in Germany.

Just keep in mind: It's not necessarily a good movie, but I do feel strongly about it being a neo noir. It's bad but very entertaining.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by kinotek

Good one. I agree that Sweet Smell of Success is a classic noir and is universally hailed as such. As to why... That’s a valid question. At first I was going to say the film is the perfect alchemy of morally compromised characters, hardboiled dialogue, urban setting, jazz score, and James Wong Howe’s amazing black and white cinematography—combining to create a film that couldn’t be anything but noir.

But then I got to thinking about those elements you say are missing, and I realized that, in fact, both Tony Curtis’ and Martin Milner’s characters are the patsies (doesn’t Curtis end up in the literal gutter at the end?), and Lancaster's J.J. Hunsecker could easily stand in for the classic femme fatale, especially if you acknowledge the (not entirely far-fetched) homoerotic overtones of the Hunsecker-Falco relationship. J.J. even ends up getting his comeuppance with the loss of his sister at the end.

And while there may not be any corrupt politicians or felonies committed, there’s enough moral corruption, blackmail, and frameups to more than make up for those deficits.

Just as crucially, there are no overwhelming elements from other genres—gangsters, car chases, shootouts, musical numbers, etc.—to tip the film out of the noir category. That’s not something that can be said for many of those other titles under discussion here.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. :-)

Let's break this down.

Which film noir doesn't have gangsters?

What about the car chases in High Sierra and They Live By Night? Plunder Road?
to name a few? Do the speeding cars disqualify those films from being noir?




Which film noir doesn't have guns and shootouts?
Do the two memorable shoot outs in White Heat (1949) disqualify that film from
being a film noir? The last 20 minutes of Black Tuesday (1954) is a shoot out.
With machine guns. Have you seen the cover of Anthony Mann's Raw Deal (1947)
accurately depicting the shootout at the end of that bonafide noir?




Musical numbers have been a part of film noir since private eye Philip Marlowe
caught Mrs. Rutledge singing in Eddie Mars' gambling club. Before that even, if
you go back to proto noir like von Sterberg's foundational films in the late 1920s,
German expressionism and French realism such as Pepe Le Moko (1938). Jazz
music has always been used in film noir to create a sense of things going out of
control, like the way Ella Raines succumbs to a jazz number in Phantom Lady
(1944) all gussied up a like street walker. How many femme fatales have you
seen doing music numbers in crime noirs? A good many. Mexico's Victims of Sin
(1951), acknowledged on this forum as a bona-fide authentic noir, is about the
corruption that festers in nightclubs with c*ck-teasing song & dance music
numbers. In Odds Against Tomorrrow (1959) one of the crooks is a musician
and his girlfriend a singer, which plays into the plot.



Books have been written about music numbers in film noir. Like this one:
Music In the Shadows by Sheri Biesen

If classic film noir can have gangsters, car chases, shootouts and musical numbers
why can't neo film noir?

More to the point, if THE SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS can be classic film noir without
the things, why can't a neo noir be a noir without those things?

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by kinotek

Good one. I agree that Sweet Smell of Success is a classic noir and is universally hailed as such. As to why... That’s a valid question. At first I was going to say the film is the perfect alchemy of morally compromised characters, hardboiled dialogue, urban setting, jazz score, and James Wong Howe’s amazing black and white cinematography—combining to create a film that couldn’t be anything but noir.

But then I got to thinking about those elements you say are missing, and I realized that, in fact, both Tony Curtis’ and Martin Milner’s characters are the patsies (doesn’t Curtis end up in the literal gutter at the end?), and Lancaster's J.J. Hunsecker could easily stand in for the classic femme fatale, especially if you acknowledge the (not entirely far-fetched) homoerotic overtones of the Hunsecker-Falco relationship. J.J. even ends up getting his comeuppance with the loss of his sister at the end...

An "alchemy of morally compromised characters, hardboiled dialogue, urban
setting, jazz score" and protagonists and patsies that "could easily stand in for
femme fatales" is a pretty good description of neo noir. Stereotyped characters
in traditional film noir are allowed to evolve into more complex characters like
you describe in neo noir. The boundaries are not so easily distinguished.

You've made my case.

The are no homoerotic overtones in The Sweet Smell of Success. Falco is just
using Hunsecker as a stepping stone because he's weak and knows no other
way. He can't get there on his own, and Hunsecker, not unlike a gangster,
exploits weak people to stay the boss.

[Richard--W]

Alan Pakula's ROLLOVER (1981) may not be part of his 1970s trilogy
but it's no less paranoid and more than meets the qualifications for
neo noir. Photographer Giuseppe Rotunno may not be Gordon Willis
but his work is comparable.

Come on Warner Brothers, make a new scan for blu-ray:

[Richard--W]

Still waiting on kinotek's reply.

No reply from sherlockjr, either.

[Richard--W]

In last night's chat at the Film Noir Foundation, Eddie Muller referred to an evening of
screenings he hosted called "Noir or Not?" He remarked that some films cross genres
but share a noir vibe that was prevalent at the time. He gave several examples and
included two films that he said are hard to define, Chaplin's Monsieur Verdoux (1947)
and Sturges' Unfaithfully Yours (1948). He said what they have in common is the noir
vibe.They may be other things before they are noir, but they are also noir. He said he's
not one for labeling, that when he watches these films he doesn't see the genre label
he sees a film noir. He singled out Don Siegel's Hell Is for Heroes (1962) as a war film
that is also a film noir.



Starts at about 35 minutes in:

ASK EDDIE - September 18, 2025 - YouTube

[kinotek]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Still waiting on kinotek's reply.

No reply from sherlockjr, either.

Sorry, it's all just TL;DR at this point. I said my piece, am moving on. Good luck with the thread.