Why exactly does rptv tech fall short of LCD and Plasma in terms of sheer PQ?

[eclimax13]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

lol cute graphic, but how is that beating your head on a brick wall, i stated my opinion and asked the same question as the thread which never really got answered to my satisfaction before calibration settings and such started getting thrown out, if your one of those people that can't take criticism of your set i apologize, but my last post has been my experience and expected to find more facts when i wandered into this thread.

it because your opinion and criticism is completely based off of inexperience and lack of knowledge of projection tv's. the internet if full of useful information where one could educate them self before making these kind of comments or "opinions". there is a time and place for every technology. the extremely well lit big chain store will basically benefit none as once you get the tv home, you should not be using the extreme settings used in the store.
projection tv's are to be used in low light applications as they are not direct view meaning the picture is created and them projected off a mirror onto the screen... therefore light will wash out the blacks and dull the picture...exactly what you experienced in the store..if you have a fairly well lit room, projection is not for you, if your like most of us who have light controlled room projection can provide a much more pleasing picture as far as colors, depth, and definitely black levels (only lcd), all while getting a MUCH bigger screen for MUCH less money than plasma or lcd, aka my 67" led dlp for $1500..go ahead, search for that screen size in plasma and lcd, then look at the price and weight of the unit.
this is why my theater and bedroom both have projection tv's. i have a panasonic tcp50g10 plasma in the living room, once again due to lighting conditions, and a more sleek look.
so there you go...get a projection in a light controlled room and it will be one of the best pictures you've ever seen, properly setup of course

heres is cnet' top 5 best hdtv's http://reviews.cnet.com/best-hdtvs/
notice number 4 and also notice price points of all 5

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by eclimax13

it because your opinion and criticism is completely based off of inexperience and lack of knowledge of projection tv's. the internet if full of useful information where one could educate them self before making these kind of comments or "opinions". there is a time and place for every technology. the extremely well lit big chain store will basically benefit none as once you get the tv home, you should not be using the extreme settings used in the store.

heres is cnet' top 5 best hdtv's http://reviews.cnet.com/best-hdtvs/
notice number 4 and also notice price points of all 5

wow talk about me jumping to conclusions, all 4 of these that i have seen were at home, not in the store, i do know better then to make judgements based on a best buy calibrated set

that being said i have seen un-calibrated lcd's, and calibrated, along with plasma, and while i have yet to see a properly calibrated one of these to my knowledge, i can still make a judgement based on what i have seen lol, sure calibration goes a long LONG way to maximizing a set, but the base potential is still there on some of the presets once altered a bit. My personal experience is that plasma is FAR superior to LCD (which i own) un-calibrated or not, in general, and of course certain brands and models stack up better then others.

But i have yet to see one of these sets stack up to the lcd's i have seen even the ones that were badly set up lol and those can be bad, i was just curious as to the drawbacks on these sets. I can name a few for LCD and plasma and i am extremely curious about these now since it appears the ONLY drawback is cost to manufacture, which is funny since a quick fix would be to simply raise the price since they are so much cheaper then LCD and Plasma for size and if they are superior then they would still remain competitive.

Also i am not in the market to buy, i am however skimming a forum to kill some time hence my post and lack of a detailed research project into the tech, since i figured i might get an explanation here. Obviously i touched a fanboy nerve which after the format war, and the occasional post about wii or 360 in the ps3 forum i have become shockingly aware of and how personal some take their gadgets

[Riff Magnum]

Yeah, i think Eclimax is a little touchy and biased about his dLp's. The argument of plamas and lcd's only being good looking in bright environments is false. If anything, it's the other way around, as plasma's and lcd's have traditionally had much more glare off the screen from outside light. Of course the manufacturers know this and in recent years plasma and lcd's have made great strides in reducing glare. A plasma or lcd will look great in a dark environment, why wouldn't it? The only thing that would keep if from looking good in low light conditions would be if the owner still had the showroom settings locked in, but couldn't that be said about all tv's, regardless of the tech? Most tv's also have more than one "mode." For example, if i'm watching tv during the day i use standard mode, which has a little higher contrast level. If the picture is still too dark, i might crank the LED light from low to med and that will give me all the "pop" i need. If i'm watching a movie, i make sure to do it at night, or if it's during the day, i close all my curtains and set the TV to "movie mode."
I'm a proud owner of LED DLP, but my decision was made based on the quality of the picture, the size of the display, and the price i could get it for. I got a badass 61" 1080p tv for $999. Does it have black levels that compare to the high end pannies or pio's? No. To say otherwise is foolish, but spending $4000-$7000 on a comparably sized screen would have been foolish for me. It uses less energy than lcd or plasmas, is lighter than similar sized lcd's or plasmas, and doesn't have bulb or ballast issues like other DLP's. It's also very thin compared to most DLP's. Can i mount it on a wall for that super-clean contemporary look? No, but my room setup forces me to place it in a corner to allow more people to see the tv, so whatever kind of tv i have is gonna be on a stand with my other components anyways.
Just thought i'd give you a little more even tempered response.

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

.
Just thought i'd give you a little more even tempered response.

lol appreciated, just from my very limited knowledge in this area, slightly better knowledge in plasma, and i would say a little above average info on lcd, i actually recommend these sets to friends/co-workers who ever, who ask me what they should be looking at when they say they are on a budget and want to go big. I was just curious when i saw this thread what the real drawbacks are cause as i stated previously i know drawbacks to plasma vs lcd and visa versa, both physically and pq wise.

[CollinViegas]

Take this from a person who has owned many RPTV sets in the past 4 years

I have owned the 60WE610 {RPLCD}, 60XS955 {RPLCD}, 60XBR1 {SXRD}, 60 & 70 XBR2 {SXRD}

I have also owned a Sony XBR4 LCD TV, Panasonic Plasma {cant remember model number} and a Pioneer Elite Pro-151-FD

RPTV's are excellent for the money you get large size and 80-90% of the picture quality. On the Sony sets the matte screen degrades the image and Blacks are O.K. Not great by any means. When they were first introduced they were an excellent option but the rest of the market outgrew them due to size of the units and performance.

All of my sets are now or were ISF callibrated and RPTV's simply dont come close to the best in plasma tech when it comes to black levels and color depth. However they do provide a smooth picture that is more than enough to satisfy.

LCD on the other hand, is catching up in the black level department and make for an excellent TV in a well lit room {livingrooms,windows and such}
They have excellent color reproduction, better asethetics and now better black levels than RPTV's without the worry of a bulb burning out.

To the person that said bulbs burn out quick, mine on the TV's I kept for a while never blew. The XBR2 needed to be changed after about 2 years. However both my XBR1 and one of my XBR2 SXRD TV's developed an optical block problem that persisted and eventually ruined them way before they should have died.

Sony did the right thing and sent me a free 52" XBR4 for my 60 XBR1's problems and the store I bought the XBR2 from gave me a store credit which I used towards the Pioneer.

In a direct comparison to the Pioneer sets, I would have to say there is nothing I have seen an RPTV do better than the Pioneer Plasma. It's is a better set in every category.

[eclimax13]

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

granted they were not in my house so chances are they were not properly calibrated. But they just seemed dull for lack of a better word

this led me to believe that you saw them at a big chain store. so for assuming that i am sorry. i just figured you were another one of the countless yuppies that enters best buy and think the brightest and most colorful is the best tv. ive been into this stuff for years and have been through this conversation way too many times (i used to sell for tweeter). this may have led to me jumping the gun though i didnt think my response was hostile.

Originally Posted by krazeyeyez

Obviously i touched a fanboy nerve

this couldnt be farther from the truth..i learned long ago never to be a fanboy in any aspect of life, especially not with tv's as what works for me may not work for you. if i was i wouldnt have a plasma on the wall, which i think is a better picture than both my projection tv's, but watching a 50" in a theater room would really be boring, which is my reasoning for bigger screen, less money without sacrificing pq. i dont have the money for a 70" plasma..the 60" sxrd is my old tv and if i could sell it and get a 50" plasma for the bedroom, i would in a heartbeat but my return on this set is little to none compared to what i paid...and it has a warranty and never given me a problem so i guess ill keep it.

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

Yeah, i think Eclimax is a little touchy and biased about his dLp's. The argument of plamas and lcd's only being good looking in bright environments is false.

as for this...i own 1 dlp so not sure where you got this idea from, also i never said plasmas and lcds only look good in bright conditions...i said they look better than projections in bright conditions

[krazeyeyez]

lol well thats cool and understandable, i too have been through the "why torch mode is bad" many times also.

I knew cost to size benefit was what really set these sets apart from their lcd, plasma counterparts, i was just curious to the tech draw backs when compared with them, and the explanation from collin stating 80-90% of the PQ is more along the lines of what i have experienced.

I was just looking for some very basic info so the next time i get an inquiry since so many people know i am a geek for this kind of stuff i could list some of the drawbacks or advantages of the alternatives, in addition to the good stuff about these. Being that i have yet to see any lcd or hell some plasma's match the black levels or pq of some high end plasma's including the kuro i was surprised no real drawbacks were listed and that said some these match up or are better. Of course a lot of this is subjective and what appeals to each individuals own eyes.

[eclimax13]

you pretty much said it...just because its a plasma doesnt mean its a plasma...so another thing that people get mixed up with that a plasma will look better than any other tv...not so as ive seen some pretty crappy plasmas (older samsungs were awful)...ive also seen some really really bad projection tvs (first samsung led tv)...and as far as lcd flat panel, ive yet to find one i like that isnt in the $2500+ range, and that for just a 46" ...what people need to do is figure the basics of what they need, then find the technology that fits those needs, then compare the tv's within that technology

[Monkey]

So far now display is tops in every category. They all have their pro's and con's.. image retention and glare on plasma's, motion blur on LCD's (glare as well for some models), Rear projections not always having perfect geometry, viewing angle (though I've never had a problem), CRT's - geometry.

Really the best way is to choose on personal preference, which trade off you want to live with and your viewing environment.

[sdhobbs]

Originally Posted by CollinViegas

Take this from a person who has owned many RPTV sets in the past 4 years

I have owned the 60WE610 {RPLCD}, 60XS955 {RPLCD}, 60XBR1 {SXRD}, 60 & 70 XBR2 {SXRD}

I have also owned a Sony XBR4 LCD TV, Panasonic Plasma {cant remember model number} and a Pioneer Elite Pro-151-FD

RPTV's are excellent for the money you get large size and 80-90% of the picture quality. On the Sony sets the matte screen degrades the image and Blacks are O.K. Not great by any means. When they were first introduced they were an excellent option but the rest of the market outgrew them due to size of the units and performance.

All of my sets are now or were ISF callibrated and RPTV's simply dont come close to the best in plasma tech when it comes to black levels and color depth. However they do provide a smooth picture that is more than enough to satisfy.

LCD on the other hand, is catching up in the black level department and make for an excellent TV in a well lit room {livingrooms,windows and such}
They have excellent color reproduction, better asethetics and now better black levels than RPTV's without the worry of a bulb burning out.

To the person that said bulbs burn out quick, mine on the TV's I kept for a while never blew. The XBR2 needed to be changed after about 2 years. However both my XBR1 and one of my XBR2 SXRD TV's developed an optical block problem that persisted and eventually ruined them way before they should have died.

Sony did the right thing and sent me a free 52" XBR4 for my 60 XBR1's problems and the store I bought the XBR2 from gave me a store credit which I used towards the Pioneer.

In a direct comparison to the Pioneer sets, I would have to say there is nothing I have seen an RPTV do better than the Pioneer Plasma. It's is a better set in every category.

I agree with you Collin. I owned an KDS-50A200 for 1yr. I never had it calibrated unfortunately, maybe that would have changed my opinion.
I gave it to my parents and bought a Pio 5010 and had it ISF calibrated. I still see my old SXRD when I visit my parents and colors seem duller and blacks are not as black compared to my Pio. My fiance says the same thing. My best friend owns the same SXRD and I feel the same way when I watch tv at his house. Plasma's just seem brighter/better contrast and colors pop more. My 2 cents.

[[1080-p]]

rptvs do have the best picture quality and the fact alot of them are not in stores is just plain stupid

My first tv was electrohome 40" crt and it was great

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by nugent

You are right. I went back and looked and my contrast is set at 70%. I was thinking about the "brightness". I used the "TweakTV.com" settings. This is basically what the settings are after a ISF professional calibration.


◦Contrast (Picture) : 70
◦Brightness : 48
◦Color : 52
◦Hue : R1
◦Sharpness : 25
◦Noise Reduction : Mid

I'm using these settings as well. I don't think my tv could look any better unless it had an in-home calibration by an ISF technician.

[nugent]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I'm using these settings as well. I don't think my tv could look any better unless it had an in-home calibration by an ISF technician.

Yeah It looks we have the same TV. I have the 60" and gave the parents the 50" version. I was looking at it last night trying to decide if it was worth spending $5k on a 60" Pioneer plasma or just keeping this one for a while longer. I paid $2,200 for it in January of 2007. I would have a hard time getting $800 out of it now! It is still a lot of bang for the buck! I just sort of look at it as having a hell of a 60" 1080P picture for $800! I even have the spare bulb on hand when it ever gets around to needing it. Still going strong and never been replaced.

I am just having a real hard time justifying spending over $4k to get the same size screen in the Pioneer. Yes I know the Pioneer would be better. Just not sure it would be $4k better.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by nugent

Yeah It looks we have the same TV. I have the 60" and gave the parents the 50" version. I was looking at it last night trying to decide if it was worth spending $5k on a 60" Pioneer plasma or just keeping this one for a while longer. I paid $2,200 for it in January of 2007. I would have a hard time getting $800 out of it now! It is still a lot of bang for the buck! I just sort of look at it as having a hell of a 60" 1080P picture for $800! I even have the spare bulb on hand when it ever gets around to needing it. Still going strong and never been replaced.

I am just having a real hard time justifying spending over $4k to get the same size screen in the Pioneer. Yes I know the Pioneer would be better. Just not sure it would be $4k better.

Wow nugent, your situation pretty much parallels mine exactly. I bought my 60A2000 in January of 07 as well. I paid about the same as you did through Amazon.com. My original bulb is still going strong though I'm sure it has to be reaching near the end.

You sound just like me in saying you're having a hard time justifying spending 4k for a Pioneer. To be honest, there's nothing "wrong" with my current SXRD. It has great PQ but I AM a home theater nut and I am I always looking for that next best thing. That's why I'm waiting for the new 54" V-series of Panasonic plasmas to come out. I have a feeling that they will come very close to equaling the elites and be about half the price. The black levels are supposed to be better than their own G10 series from what I understand. If it turns out to be a flop, then I might reconsider the Kuro.

[nugent]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Wow nugent, your situation pretty much parallels mine exactly. I bought my 60A2000 in January of 07 as well. I paid about the same as you did through Amazon.com. My original bulb is still going strong though I'm sure it has to be reaching near the end.

You sound just like me in saying you're having a hard time justifying spending 4k for a Pioneer. To be honest, there's nothing "wrong" with my current SXRD. It has great PQ but I AM a home theater nut and I am I always looking for that next best thing. That's why I'm waiting for the new 54" V-series of Panasonic plasmas to come out. I have a feeling that they will come very close to equaling the elites and be about half the price. The black levels are supposed to be better than their own G10 series from what I understand. If it turns out to be a flop, then I might reconsider the Kuro.

Yep sounds like we are in about the same spot. I am always looking for the next best thing, within' reason of course. I just finished watching Saturday Night Fever on Blu a few minutes ago and the set still looks great. I need to clarify what I said about the cost to upgrade. My stating it would be $4k was on top of what I could get out of mine. Sounds even worse that way.
Like you I am starting to lean towards holding off and checking out the Panasonics. Nothing stays the same and the Pioneers will eventually be overtaken either the Panasonics or something else. Heck the SXRD was the "It" TV in 2006. Sound and Vision had it as like the product of the year. Technology marches forward as will the state of the art in displays. I am just feeling less and less like I have to have the Pioneer right now. It would be different if I was watching some cheapo 26" TV. I probably should just chill and enjoy my long since paid for SXRD and save my money for some other toy.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by nugent

Yep sounds like we are in about the same spot. I am always looking for the next best thing, within' reason of course. I just finished watching Saturday Night Fever on Blu a few minutes ago and the set still looks great. I need to clarify what I said about the cost to upgrade. My stating it would be $4k was on top of what I could get out of mine. Sounds even worse that way.
Like you I am starting to lean towards holding off and checking out the Panasonics. Nothing stays the same and the Pioneers will eventually be overtaken either the Panasonics or something else. Heck the SXRD was the "It" TV in 2006. Sound and Vision had it as like the product of the year. Technology marches forward as will the state of the art in displays. I am just feeling less and less like I have to have the Pioneer right now. It would be different if I was watching some cheapo 26" TV. I probably should just chill and enjoy my long since paid for SXRD and save my money for some other toy.

Well for me, besides wanting better PQ there are a couple of issues I have with my SXRD. For one, it's honestly too much tv for my tv room. The size and bulk of the set completely dominate the room at 60" wide and 20" deep. I feel that a plasma tv, somewhere between 54 and 58" would be perfect because not only would the set be a little smaller, I would be able slide it much further back and the viewing distance would not be as close. Even a 60" plasma would be better because of this.

Another issue I have with mine is the viewing angle. The way my tv room is setup, if I have guests over to watch a movie, of course I always give them the front and center seating but that means I have to watch from the extreme right or left which as we all know, the picture starts to fade out from those angles. Even playing games like Rock Band become a nuisance because you do see a degradation in the picture when you stand up to play.

I think the 54" V-series Panny's come out in June. I'm going to wait and see what the reviewers say first and if they are comparable to the Kuro then I'm going to pull the trigger. If not, I'll continue looking at the Kuro but like you, I would have a very hard time swallowing that price.

[nugent]

Oh well so much for holding out! I got a deal on the 151fd that I could not pass up!

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...03#post1895003

Looks like I can sell my 60" SXRD now without ever having changed the bulb.