Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Damn - good call on the slave transmitters. How could I have forgotten that?

Still though, Qui Gon could have worked something to get her too. Hell, they could have come back shortly afterwards and tried at least.

Correct. Leaving Shmi as a slave on Naboo is a moral failing of the people of Naboo (Anakin saved them), Padme (ditto), and the Jedi themselves (Guardians of Peace and Justice, but they won't actually help anyone unless they have some kind of legal warrant from the Senate). There is one line in Phantom Menace that Phanboys cling to: Qui-Gon tells Anakin, "I tried to free your mother, but Watto wouldn't have it." They state this line exists to give the Jedi the moral cover for leaving her for over a decade, because they infer that Watto would not free Shmi, no matter what. I don't buy it because a) he obviously did free Shmi at one point, and b) one certainly receives the impression Watto would have sold her if the price is right, i.e. "One pod is not worth two slaves!" He obviously had his price.

But freed Shmi = no enraged Anakin. Unfortunately, "no freed Shmi" and the Jedi turning their back on her suffering means maybe the "Galactic Republic" and the Jedi weren't worth saving, or at the least, needed serious reforms.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Damn - good call on the slave transmitters. How could I have forgotten that?

If you figure it out please tell me how to forget everything between the opening lightsaber ignitions and the duel of fates (which to be fair were both pretty cool).

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by Strevlac

Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher where both excellent in Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. I don't see how they could have possibly been any better.

The only issue I have with Carrie Fisher is how she portrayed Leia watching Alderaan blow up. She just witnessed her home planet and billions or at the very least millions of people die instantly, and her reaction in that scene and thereafter is an understatement, to say the least. Though this is probably more of a criticism of George Lucas the director than poor acting on Fisher's part.

[nmycon]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Though this is probably more of a criticism of George Lucas the director than poor acting on Fisher's part.

This is probably correct. We have no idea how many takes of this scene were filmed or how Carrie reacted in any of the unused takes (if there were any).

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

The only issue I have with Carrie Fisher is how she portrayed Leia watching Alderaan blow up. She just witnessed her home planet and billions or at the very least millions of people die instantly, and her reaction in that scene and thereafter is an understatement, to say the least. Though this is probably more of a criticism of George Lucas the director than poor acting on Fisher's part.

What was wrong with her reaction in that scene? From the very begining she was set up as one "tough cookie"...and her loyality to the Rebellion was greater than anything else. What was she supposed to do fall on the ground crying? If she were to have done that it would rank right up there with one of the greatest cringe moments in the series "Anakin you're breaking my heart"

[MerrickG]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Well, generally speaking I am no 'defender' of the prequels, and I agree that this could have been handled a lot better.

That being said, I still overall enjoyed Episode III more than the previous 2 prequels in part because it was darker and more actual events occur. But it still has some huge, gaping flaws.

I think this issue, though, just goes hand in hand with the general mishandling of Anakin's character from the get-go in the prequels. One of the biggest problems with which (IMO) being that they started him out as a kid in Episode 1 and then we jump to him being a young adult in Episode 2.

He's this happy-go-lucky kid in the first movie (aside from being somewhat sad about being separated from his mom, etc), and then he's basically an arrogant prick from the get-go in Episode 2. Couple that with Hayden's questionable acting (which I attribute more to GL's directing than I do Hayden's ability as an actor), and there was never any real 'character development' with him.

Lucas tried to set up all of these parallels between Anakin and Luke, but they only exist on the surface.... they are very superficial. For example, both of them growing up in the desert on Tatooine, both getting their hands cut off in their respective 2nd movies, etc.

But really, it doesn't 'feel' like Anakin really grows as a character. With Luke, we see him go from a somewhat whiney farm boy who wants desperately to leave the farm to him becoming a Jedi. It really seems like he develops as a character over the course of those 3 movies.

By having the big age jump with Anakin from Episodes 1 to 2, there's no development... they just skip right over that portion of it. And he's never a likable character once we see him when he's older. He's just a big jag-off from the beginning of Episode 2. He never really seems to struggle that much with the decisions that he has to make to go to the dark side. He doesn't go from being a likable charcter to an evil one. He's just an evil jerk to start off with and it's really only in 'name' that he goes from being a Jedi to being a Sith. That's about it.

He should have been older to start with in Episode 1 (and should have been played by the same actor for all 3 movies), and they really should have done a better job with actual character development. In Episodes 1 and 2, Anakin should have been very similar to how Luke's character was portrayed in Episodes 4 and 5. And it would have been in their respective third episodes that they would have gone down 2 different paths. But like many things, they screwed that up.

I agree completely. I do think there are some small things that could have happened that could have made the change more believable instead of being so abrupt. I just plain don't agree with "love" being the reason he goes to the darkside and he is supposed to believe that Palpatine is the key to solving that all. He is killing all of those child jedi for "love?" I just don't buy it.

I think it would have been better if there was made is such a way that Anakin feels he has no choice but to go to the darkside.

For example: Lets say like in battle he recklessly does something that causes a lot of innocents or jedi to get killed and then he gets expelled from the jedi order and he has to be taken in to get stand for that mistake, but he somehow loses his temper and kills those trying to take him in and the jedi order decides to hunt him down which gives palpatine the perfect opening to manipulate him and then he eventually grows to enjoy the freedom he has with the darkside.

Just something like that I felt would have worked better than love and in one minute he is a conflicted individual then the next minute he is murdering children and jedi. I just plain didn't buy it and I see that as the biggest screw up in the entire prequel trilogy. The 2nd being the abruptness of the love story in episode 3.

My main criticism of the prequels has really been George Lucas directing. A better director I am certain could have pulled it off in a way was slightly more believable. I always felt that the story was there for the prequels.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

What was wrong with her reaction in that scene? From the very begining she was set up as one "tough cookie"...and her loyality to the Rebellion was greater than anything else. What was she supposed to do fall on the ground crying? If she were to have done that it would rank right up there with one of the greatest cringe moments in the series "Anakin you're breaking my heart"

Everyone reacts differently to tragedy, but any human being that just watched their entire family/people wiped out would start to crack (emotionally) at some point. She never does.

And I've heard the phrase "you're breaking my heart," enough times not to make it too cheesy or chliche'. If you want to debate cringe worthy love lines, what about the "no, I'm so in love with you!" line.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

The only issue I have with Carrie Fisher is how she portrayed Leia watching Alderaan blow up. She just witnessed her home planet and billions or at the very least millions of people die instantly, and her reaction in that scene and thereafter is an understatement, to say the least. Though this is probably more of a criticism of George Lucas the director than poor acting on Fisher's part.

There are plenty of reasons to question GL's directorial abilities but I'm not so sure this is one of them.

Rather than poor acting or directing Leia's muted reaction seems more like an intentional style choice (and one that worked extremely well at that).

This wasn't a gritty drama...it was a Saturday serial. It was a western and not the 'Unforgiven' type western. It was the type of western where you come across a wagon train that's been slaughtered, you think 'the people who did this must be bad' and then you move on.

Maybe, if you really want to tug at the heartstrings, you pan across a charred doll in the wreckage but that's as real as those people will ever get in that kind of a western.

They're just props.

And there's really nothing inherently wrong with that.

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by octagon

There are plenty of reasons to question GL's directorial abilities but I'm not so sure this is one of them.

Rather than poor acting or directing Leia's muted reaction seems more like an intentional style choice (and one that worked extremely well at that).

This wasn't a gritty drama...it was a Saturday serial. It was a western and not the 'Unforgiven' type western. It was the type of western where you come across a wagon train that's been slaughtered, you think 'the people who did this must be bad' and then you move on.

Maybe, if you really want to tug at the heartstrings, you pan across a charred doll in the wreckage but that's as real as those people will ever get in that kind of a western.

They're just props.

And there's really nothing inherently wrong with that.

I agree that within the context and tone of A New Hope, the scene is fine. However, in the context of the other other films, like Revenge of the Sith which amps up the melodrama, her reaction and attitude thereafter to the mass genocide of an entire planet of her people just feels quite understated. Though when he made A New Hope, he probably didn't think the series would take on a more serious tone as seen in Empire.

However, I do get what you are saying. Lucas probably didn't want to linger on the tragedy of it all in a realistic manner as it would have dragged the whole film down and made it much more depressing than it needed to be. Star Wars is supposed to be about adventure, fun, and optimism, after all.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

However, I do get what you are saying. Lucas probably didn't want to linger on the tragedy of it all in a realistic manner as it would have dragged the whole film down and made it much more depressing than it needed to be. Star Wars is supposed to be about adventure, fun, and optimism, after all.

This is kind of like the, "Did Obi-wan lie to Luke?" discussion, but as a self-professed Leia expert, I have to say that I thought her slightly muted reaction was extremely appropriate to the character of Leia.

I'm not sure what people expected, if it was for her to scream and cry and throw a tantrum on the floor. She's a Princess who was well-trained in negotiations, diplomacy, and other stately behavior. You can easily see the pain in her eyes, but she is also obviously restraining herself as she is standing in front of the very people she needs to show strength for.

Basically, if she were some random person who watched their planet be destroyed, I'd possibly see the point. But in this case, she was (to her knowledge) one of the last surviving members of the Royal family, and her training would likely include not displaying raw emotion in front of the enemy, especially at such a time of great distress.

/shrug

That's just my 2cents on the topic. No, Carrie Fisher probably won't win an Oscar, but she knew the role of a Princess well, since in essence she was one in real life as well.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

This is kind of like the, "Did Obi-wan lie to Luke?" discussion, but as a self-professed Leia expert, I have to say that I thought her slightly muted reaction was extremely appropriate to the character of Leia.

I'm not sure what people expected, if it was for her to scream and cry and throw a tantrum on the floor. She's a Princess who was well-trained in negotiations, diplomacy, and other stately behavior. You can easily see the pain in her eyes, but she is also obviously restraining herself as she is standing in front of the very people she needs to show strength for.

Basically, if she were some random person who watched their planet be destroyed, I'd possibly see the point. But in this case, she was (to her knowledge) one of the last surviving members of the Royal family, and her training would likely include not displaying raw emotion in front of the enemy, especially at such a time of great distress.

/shrug

That's just my 2cents on the topic. No, Carrie Fisher probably won't win an Oscar, but she knew the role of a Princess well, since in essence she was one in real life as well.

Right on the money! You didnt see her back down from Vader or Tarkin! She was one tough cookie!

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Right on the money! You didnt see her back down from Vader or Tarkin! She was one tough cookie!

I still crack up at how she adopts a British accent when she's playing opposite Peter Cushing. Fisher took acting classes in England while working on the film, and lapsed into the British accent she used during her acting exercises with other Brits.

A rabid SW Phanbot once tried to tell me Leia was speaking "diplodialect", meaning everyone in her position speaks with a British accent when speaking in an official capacity, and Leia only drops it when she's not talking to authority figures.

Uh huh.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

What was wrong with her reaction in that scene? From the very begining she was set up as one "tough cookie"...and her loyality to the Rebellion was greater than anything else. What was she supposed to do fall on the ground crying? If she were to have done that it would rank right up there with one of the greatest cringe moments in the series "Anakin you're breaking my heart"

Cowboy turning an OT moment into an opportunity to bash the prequels?

Say it ain't so Joe!

(shtick is getting older than Yoda)

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by merrick97

I agree completely. I do think there are some small things that could have happened that could have made the change more believable instead of being so abrupt. I just plain don't agree with "love" being the reason he goes to the darkside and he is supposed to believe that Palpatine is the key to solving that all. He is killing all of those child jedi for "love?" I just don't buy it.

I think it would have been better if there was made is such a way that Anakin feels he has no choice but to go to the darkside.

For example: Lets say like in battle he recklessly does something that causes a lot of innocents or jedi to get killed and then he gets expelled from the jedi order and he has to be taken in to get stand for that mistake, but he somehow loses his temper and kills those trying to take him in and the jedi order decides to hunt him down which gives palpatine the perfect opening to manipulate him and then he eventually grows to enjoy the freedom he has with the darkside.

Just something like that I felt would have worked better than love and in one minute he is a conflicted individual then the next minute he is murdering children and jedi. I just plain didn't buy it and I see that as the biggest screw up in the entire prequel trilogy. The 2nd being the abruptness of the love story in episode 3.

My main criticism of the prequels has really been George Lucas directing. A better director I am certain could have pulled it off in a way was slightly more believable. I always felt that the story was there for the prequels.

I couldn't disagree more. The turn to the dark side is handeled very beautiful and in character. "Love" and "compassion" are the driving forces in Anakins live. His love for his mother is very strong and he is compelled to help and save people. So "love" has to be the bane that turns him to the dark side.

If it would have happened in a kind of battle situation it would be an "accident" and not a clear decision on his part.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Well said. That goes double for the people who somehow think Harrison Ford's wooden acting and the marvelous thespian skills of a coked out Carrie Fisher are superior to the acting in the prequels.

Hah! Don't rain on people's OT parade, man. They don't like it.

To me, the acting is at roughly the same level throughout the series (give or take a few proper thesps like Guiness or Cushing), but it's the characters themselves that make the difference. Leia's a feisty little one compared to the robotic Padme, and there's no-one in the prequels with Han Solo's swagger, which was a near-fatal mistake. Luke is a whiny little tart in Star Wars, but at least he progresses from douchebag to less-of-a-douchebag as the movies go on, which is unfortunately reversed for Anakin.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by shaft windu

i couldn't disagree more. The turn to the dark side is handeled very beautiful and in character. "love" and "compassion" are the driving forces in anakins live. His love for his mother is very strong and he is compelled to help and save people. So "love" has to be the bane that turns him to the dark side.

If it would have happened in a kind of battle situation it would be an "accident" and not a clear decision on his part.

+1

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

The only issue I have with Carrie Fisher is how she portrayed Leia watching Alderaan blow up. She just witnessed her home planet and billions or at the very least millions of people die instantly, and her reaction in that scene and thereafter is an understatement, to say the least. Though this is probably more of a criticism of George Lucas the director than poor acting on Fisher's part.

Leia's reaction is in keeping with the character throughout the whole thing. She one of the leaders of the rebellion and I think she would rather not give the Empire any satisfaction that they got to her. Yes, she breaks momentarily, but composes herself.

Look at her throughout the series. She stands up to Darth Vader right after being captured (we are given the impression Vader would choke a B#$#ch Wayne Brady style for less). She is tortured in the Death Star and in Cloud City, but the Empire never breaks her. Not even Jabba (who objectifies her) could break her will (speaking of choking people out...). Even in her romance with Solo she is tough on the guy. She was a tough woman, and a great character.

All I am saying if it was Leia that was fighting Vader in Cloud City and lost a hand, she would have just used her left hand and kept on fighting. I cannot wait to see her pick off that ATST driver at the end of Jedi in HD this fall.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I couldn't disagree more. The turn to the dark side is handeled very beautiful and in character.

No, it really, really wasn't. Frankly I think the people who think the PT was great can't differentiate good acting from bad.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

No, it really, really wasn't. Frankly I think the people who think the PT was great can't differentiate good acting from bad.

And people who dislike the PT don't know the first thing about Storytelling. That's just my opinion. For me the PT totally hit the spot. The acting was beatifully moving, especially in the love scenes and the final confrontation between Anakin and Padme.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

No, it really, really wasn't. Frankly I think the people who think the PT was great can't differentiate good acting from bad.

Dude, it's all bad in Star Wars.