Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PCFan]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Fiffy, to me we have reached a point where Streaming Digital is Disc Quality. I think the people that prefer Discs should not put down Digital Streaming. I keep saying it's all Digital the Codec is the same, so you either Read and Stream from a Disc Player or you Read and Stream from a Digital Server Provider. Digital Streaming Technology has come a long way in a short time, and even the Experts don't have all the facts right. To Stream Disc Quality Movies you need a High End Digital Provider like Sony Ultra, good consistent High Bandwidth, High Quality Streaming Device, and everything set up properly Hard Wired preferred.

In iTunes, a downloaded movie in 1080p that's about 2 hours long is still around 5 GB in size. It's like this for every movie in 1080p in proportion to playback time in my iTunes library. I wonder if the improved streaming technology you are talking about does not apply if you download the movie from iTunes instead of stream it because I did not noticed any banding of gradients in a dark scene while streaming a certain movie from my iTunes collection but I easily saw the banding of gradients in the download version through iTunes Home Sharing of the same movie in the same scene through my Apple TV 4k. I wonder if iTunes is using a higher bit rate for the streamed version than the download version? Are the streamed versions getting better treatment than the download versions or if the download version is a different file than the streamed version? Also I prefer to download my purchases instead of stream because my internet tends to disconnect sometimes.

[Clark Griswold]

With a movie like Eurotrip. It's blu ray is like $8. Vudu has the hdx copy for like $14. There are no digital copies with Eurotrip physical copies.

When it's this type of situation with cataloged films, how is the quality of these digital copies?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by SarahS

Dude the only one trolling is you.

Have you seen alchav21's posts???

Even if you feel that Steedeel is trolling, he is most certainly not the only one.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Have you seen alchav21's posts???

Even if you feel that Steedeel is trolling, he is most certainly not the only one.

It’s the other way around. Sarah can’t help herself when it comes to jumping into other movie threads and trashing movies she has no interest in imo. Just check out her posts.
I might get too passionate at times but I have opinions that I stick too. This is essentially a smack down thread (it was always going to be that)
Do I let my feelings be known a little too much, probably yes. But everything I say has true intentions behind it.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Since you could not be bothered to read some of the links to the articles AVSForum did, I posted the direct links so you can read them for yourself.

More random links from another forum (and they appear to be 4-5 years old to boot). I'm not sure what your point is.

Now onto iTunes UHD streams - again - this is not a fair comparison. You're comparing 2160p to 1080p. That would be like me saying a Blu-ray disc looks better than a 720p stream.

What does it matter? The fact is that for many movies the iTunes version is the best you can currently get. According to the logic of certain posters here, I guess that means everyone who sticks with the Blu-rays is "committing a sin".

20-25Mbps? Nah try more like 15 tops.

iTunes uses adaptive streaming for 4K, and people have measured speeds up to 25mbps on their routers. Apple recommends 25Mbps minimum Internet bandwidth for 4K streams (which is higher than e.g. Netflix's minimum).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PCFan

I wonder if iTunes is using a higher bit rate for the streamed version than the download version? Are the streamed versions getting better treatment than the download versions or if the download version is a different file than the streamed version?

It's difficult to analyze the streams (due to the DRM), but there are indeed signs that recent improvements on the streams unfortunately do not carry over to the downloads (yet?). It started with DD+ 7.1 audio support only being available on streams. There are also reports of not just 4K, but also HD streams having significantly higher bitrates now (e.g. here), and rumors that they may be switching to H.265 even for 1080p in some scenarios.

[InuYashaCrusade]

I own digital copies of movies that I don't watch frequently enough to want taking up space and for convenience of course. It doesn't make sense to buy a digital copy for $20-25 when you can buy the physical for around that same price and use the code and then sell it off as unused but opened. I did this with It last month and I think I paid about $6-7 for the code after selling the physical.

I have terrible internet which is one reason why I'm not 100% digital and I also don't trust not physically owning something.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

More random links from another forum (and they appear to be 4-5 years old to boot). I'm not sure what your point is.
What does it matter? The fact is that for many movies the iTunes version is the best you can currently get. According to the logic of certain posters here, I guess that means everyone who sticks with the Blu-rays is "committing a sin".
iTunes uses adaptive streaming for 4K, and people have measured speeds up to 25mbps on their routers. Apple recommends 25Mbps minimum Internet bandwidth for 4K streams (which is higher than e.g. Netflix's minimum).

For someone who sees the good in both formats you don’t half have a digital leaning.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

For someone who sees the good in both formats you don’t half have a digital leaning.

I guess there is no convincing some people if they don't even want to click the links and read the articles where they directly compared streaming/digital formats to Blu-ray.

[Vilya]

You think having the citations you provide being ignored is bad? I can not even convince one of our more notoriously dense members of what a single word actually means despite posting four definitions from two different dictionaries.

If people would open their minds even half as often as they open their mouths, maybe progress could be achieved.

When I am proven wrong; I learn the lesson taught and I even thank the teacher.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I guess there is no convincing some people if they don't even want to click the links and read the articles where they directly compared streaming/digital formats to Blu-ray.

Perhaps people would be more inclined to take your links seriously if you could explain how some forum posts that were written years before iTunes 4K existed are relevant to a discussion involving iTunes 4K? You somehow seem to think they prove something (but what?). Have you ever even seen an iTunes 4K stream?

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Clark Griswold

With a movie like Eurotrip. It's blu ray is like $8. Vudu has the hdx copy for like $14. There are no digital copies with Eurotrip physical copies.

When it's this type of situation with cataloged films, how is the quality of these digital copies?

You can do a D2D for $2

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sL8/edit#gid=0

[Vilya]

In fairness, he could not know how old those posts were if he had not clicked on the links provided. And the comments within them range from 3 to 5 years old.

If all of those comments predate iTunes 4K, then their relevancy is highly questionable regarding the performance of the same.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by InuYashaCrusade

I own digital copies of movies that I don't watch frequently enough to want taking up space and for convenience of course. It doesn't make sense to buy a digital copy for $20-25 when you can buy the physical for around that same price and use the code and then sell it off as unused but opened. I did this with It last month and I think I paid about $6-7 for the code after selling the physical.

Uh oh. Keeping the code and selling the disc? That'll get you in trouble in this thread.

I'm actually quite happy with the pricing at iTunes. You get 4K at the same price as HD, and many great new releases are $15. I'm happy to pay that for movies such as Darkest Hour or Three Billboards. It's mostly just the big blockbusters that cost $20, but they usually drop to $15 or less after a few weeks (exception: Disney ). You can also buy discounted gift cards to reduce the cost further.

Code redemptions are becoming less attractive as studios are more and more moving away from direct iTunes redemptions (so you don't get the 4K upgrade anymore). But anyway, considering that I so far got more than 100 free 4K upgrades for movies I already owned, I feel like I'm much better off than all those disc double-dippers.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Vilya

In fairness, he could not know how old those posts were if he had not clicked on the links provided. And the comments within them range from 3 to 5 years old.

If all of those comments predate iTunes 4K, then their relevancy is highly questionable regarding the performance of the same.

Yes those movies are all 4-6 years old. 4K streaming was not a thing yet so those articles really hold no weight.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by flyry

Yes those movies are all 4-6 years old. 4K streaming was not a thing yet so those articles really hold no weight.

The most thorough review of iTunes 4K image quality that I have seen yet is this one:

Apple TV 4K iTunes Movies (Dolby Vision HDR) vs 4K Blu-ray - YouTube

He likes to talk, so you may want to skip to the summary at around 19:40.

BTW, the review also mentions the bitrate of Spiderman Homecoming (~27Mbps average) and the Transformers movie (for some reason much lower at ~18Mbps) on iTunes.

[Vilya]

^I always enjoy his reviews and, yes, he likes to talk, but his comments are worth the time it takes to listen. I only watched this from the summary to the end, but I will watch all of it later now that it is in my viewing history.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by Clark Griswold

With a movie like Eurotrip. It's blu ray is like $8. Vudu has the hdx copy for like $14. There are no digital copies with Eurotrip physical copies.

When it's this type of situation with cataloged films, how is the quality of these digital copies?

Eurotrip blu-ray is the theatrical cut only. Not sure about digital. If you want the Unrated cut then you have to stick with the DVD.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Perhaps people would be more inclined to take your links seriously if you could explain how some forum posts that were written years before iTunes 4K existed are relevant to a discussion involving iTunes 4K? You somehow seem to think they prove something (but what?). Have you ever even seen an iTunes 4K stream?

In every one of these comparisons, it shows how the digital offerings either remove film grain, are rife with banding or have inaccurate color compared to the Blu-ray.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

The most thorough review of iTunes 4K image quality that I have seen yet is this one:

Go to ~8 minutes in. He specifically says that he notices a loss of grain in the iTunes version. When he talks about Spiderman Homecoming, he says that he sees macroblocking in the iTunes version. Forward to ~17:30, and he is talking about how the color in the iTunes version is off compared to the UHD disc. The same effects of excessive compression as seen in the AVSForum comparisons I posted previously seem to be present in the iTunes 4K streams too. As compression algorithms improve, it will probably be less of a problem. But I would not say that streaming is the same as disc quality yet.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Who are the "Experts." people that think they know what they are talking about. Have you ever looked at a DVD or Blu-ray Disc, they have Files and Folders with VOB or MTS Files. Players Stream these Files to your TV or Monitor over HDMI the same way you Stream from the Internet Hard Wired or Wireless. Don't you know the Internet is just Networks and Servers, and Computer Storage are Files and Folders...Making the Internet Computers and Servers. I was Backing-up my DVD's and Blu-rays years ago with these VOB and MTS Files to Disc and Server, and Streaming them to my HDTV with either the Disc Player or Streaming Application on my Buffalo Player.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Definition of an expert: "a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area." -Merriam Webster Dictionary.

An expert is someone with proven, detailed knowledge on a particular subject. They have credentials, such as an advanced degree from an accredited university combined with vast experience in their area of study.

They are not just people spouting opinions. You made the statement that the experts are sometimes wrong, without even saying what you think they are wrong about and without anything to support your vague assertion.

As amateurs, if either of us were to say an expert is wrong in their field of knowledge, the burden of proof would lie very heavily on us to prove that assertion. If we were to say the Head of Neurosurgery at UCLA was wrong about subarachnoid hemorrhages, then we better have some compelling evidence to prove it. Otherwise, we look the fool and deservedly so.

You seem to be unable to grasp the definition of streaming. Data read by a laser off of an optical storage disc and then conveyed over a cable to a display monitor is NOT streaming. It is simply data transfer off of a ROM disc. More precisely:

"When a Blu-Ray disc is inserted into a player, the player's laser will scan the data packets near the center of the disc to get all of the basic information that it needs to play the disc. This data also contains information about how the disc is encrypted, allowing the player to decrypt the data, which was originally encrypted as a measure against piracy. Once the player has the necessary data and encryption details it can then begin playing the disc, reading the data packets as the disc spins and converting them to digital video and audio information. This information is then sent to the television, monitor or other device connected to the Blu-Ray player, generally through the use of separate component cables or an HD cable connection."

Notice how the word "streaming" is not used in that explanation? It is simply data transfer.

The definition of streaming from yet another dictionary:

From Collins Dictionary: "a method of sequentially transmitting an audio or video presentation, as over the Internet: the data is playable as it is being received, rather than only after it is completely downloaded.

Also: "Streaming is a method of transmitting data from the Internet directly to a user's computer screen without the need to download it."

And: "the process of supplying data, audio, etc in real time over the internet."

Notice how all of these definitions for streaming use the word "internet."

Streaming requires accessing the internet; the data is not in your possession whereas it is on an optical disc. No network, no internet, is required to get the data off of an optical disc because the data is already there. Therein lies the distinction.

I am aware of the file structures on an optical disc. I have been backing up laserdiscs to blank DVD media beginning back in 2005. I make back-ups of dvds and blu-ray discs to this day, both as complete 1 to 1 copies with all menu architecture intact and also as simple data discs with just the video files themselves present on the disc media.

Players stream NOTHING off of a disc. Players read data that is already present on that disc and transfers it to a display device via a hard wired connection.

Streaming is a flow of data acquired sequentially in real time via a network connection, the internet, and can be transmitted wirelessly or by wire to a display device. The data is accessed remotely off of a server, transmitted over the internet, and is displayed as it is being received over a network connection.

Words have meanings and they are not interchangeable. The dictionary definitions are not wrong. Your usage of the word "streaming" is completely incorrect.

I have a degree from San Jose State, Retired from AT&T with 31 years, also in the Army 4 years went to Flight School came out a Warrant Officer, sent to Vietnam in '69. So by your definition I should be an "Expert" in something. I might have used Streaming loosely, but reading Digital Data and Bit Streaming it to a monitor is what I was trying to convey. You said you made your DVD and Blu-ray Back-up Discs in tact like the original, well I did too but took all that junk off and just had a few Folders with the Video Files. My Back-up DVD's had two Folders Video and Sound, but the Sound was empty, and the Video Folder had the VOB Files with Sound included. So my Disc Player read and Bit Streamed these Files the same way off the Disc or from my Network Server. You say Streaming is taking Video from the Internet, but what is the Internet Computers and Servers. My contention is, Bit Streaming from Disc or Server is basically the same.