Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Says you! Where is this imaginary law written?
Prove it now, or forever hold your peace.

I never said it was a law.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Walts Ghost

Here we go...

If Abrams puts half as much heart and soul into Episode VII as he did with Super 8 and Star Trek, the film will be on par with the original trilogy. So many of you seem to think Lucas already "ruined" Star Wars, so it's not like Abrams can do worse. We're still well over a year out. Give him a chance and see some footage before you decide he has ruined it...

As Mr Velvet said, JJ's already made a couple of Star Wars demo reels, they're called Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness. Hell, they changed the main trio from Kirk, Spock and McCoy to Kirk, Spock and Uhura just so's they could work in a classic Luke/Leia/Han type love triangle. Cue the hot-headed young man taking up the advice of a wise mentor to become a galactic hero, defending his people from a vast planet-destroying weapon which has already laid waste to the home planet of one of the main trio.

As for the rumours that

[Show spoiler] Han and Chewie will command their own Star Destroyer and that the troops are actually those of the New Republic, I was initially arguing against it for the reason that it's not the best face to present to the people that've been under the Imperial thumb for decades, as someone else said. BUT, thinking about it, the Old Republic became the Empire overnight, turning the the Clone Troopers from liberating heroes into murdering thugs, so why not flip it back around again?

There would've been a lot of Imperial hardware left over when the Empire fell and the officers fled (reminds me of the Iraqi Army fleeing in the face of IS' advance), and the New Republic would be mad to junk that stuff, technically it's theirs now anyway and they'll need defending from any new threats that may arise. After all, no sooner do people free themselves from the shackles of tyranny then they start fighting amongst themselves; a certain Civil War springs to mind.

In any case, if the rumours are true about then that's GOT to be the opening shot! **** all this hand business, if it hasn't got a Star Destroyer flying into frame then it ain't Star Wars!

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I never said it was a law.

Yet you speak as if it were, and that was my point.
Nobody owes you guys anything.

It was your decision to see and purchase the movies numerous times, and/or buy the merchandise. You are free individuals, and there was no clause that said you would own George Lucas, or his properties if you bought something.
Let's get real, shall we?

If someone buys my CD, that gives them the right to listen to my CD. Period.

[Det. Bullock]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

My prediction is that this will become run, jump and shoot Star Wars much like what Abrams did to Star Trek. It will be a huge, huge hit especially with the Man Of Steel and Star Trek reboot crowd. I wonder how many planets Abrams will blow up in this movie?

Star Wars has always been "run, jump and shoot" only with some new age things thrown in.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The difference is the style of the Trek reboot would actually work with Star Wars. Abrams basically made a Star Wars movie called Star Trek. Now he's on the right franchise and one that fits his style. I expect a good Star Wars style movie, even if it fails to capture the magic of the originals (as sequels 99% of the time fail to do).

Yep.

Originally Posted by Jumpman

With EPISODE II, I agree. But not with EPISODE III. It's perfect blend of the Lucas ethos. It's exactly what he wanted to achieve with his digital backlot idea.

I didn't have that impression in many scenes, you could tell a lot of the Jedi Temple was CGI and often even the part that weren't felt like it to me.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Yet you speak as if it were, and that was my point.
Nobody owes you guys anything.

It was your decision to see and purchase the movies numerous times, and/or buy the merchandise. You are free individuals, and there was no clause that said you would own George Lucas, or his properties if you bought something.
Let's get real, shall we?

If someone buys my CD, that gives them the right to listen to my CD. Period.

Going back around again on this? Who are you trying to convince? Also, really who cares now they are coming out and GL has no say whatsoever in the process anymore. Please never again bring up GL/ UOT anymore it's out of his control now and he has been out voted! Please get over it and move along.

But putting this back on track I hope that they have a different director for each film and they let the characters/story drive the films and not the cheesy special effects that the PT was so famous for. They need to turn back the clock and limit the film to no more that 500 special effects! Now that would be a classy move and a breath of fresh air. It would be a beautiful thing to see a light sabre fight with just a "real" flip or two. One of the problems with the PT is it offered nothing new as far as special effects they look like so many other films released today. Lots of action, lots of effects and a mediocre story (see marvel)

[Bluyoda]

Reading comprehension seems to be tough for some.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Going back around again on this? Who are you trying to convince? Also, really who cares now they are coming out and GL has no say whatsoever in the process anymore. Please never again bring up GL/ UOT anymore it's out of his control now and he has been out voted! Please get over it and move along.

But putting this back on track I hope that they have a different director for each film and they let the characters/story drive the films and not the cheesy special effects that the PT was so famous for. They need to turn back the clock and limit the film to no more that 500 special effects! Now that would be a classy move and a breath of fresh air. It would be a beautiful thing to see a light sabre fight with just a "real" flip or two. One of the problems with the PT is it offered nothing new as far as special effects they look like so many other films released today. Lots of action, lots of effects and a mediocre story (see marvel)

Uh, there were few films that could touch the PT for that amount of VFX at that time, only Matrix and LOTR I'd say. That they "look like so many other films released today" is irrelevant because they were cutting edge for the time, just like the OT was in fact, and back then everyone jumped on that bandwagon too (e.g. Battlestar Galactica). Lucas was a trend-setter, make no mistake, whether he made his films with puppets or pixels.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Yet you speak as if it were, and that was my point.
Nobody owes you guys anything.

It was your decision to see and purchase the movies numerous times, and/or buy the merchandise. You are free individuals, and there was no clause that said you would own George Lucas, or his properties if you bought something.
Let's get real, shall we?

If someone buys my CD, that gives them the right to listen to my CD. Period.

Get a grip. It's a forum and he was expressing his opinion passionately that he want the originals and you knew it just like you were expressing yours passionately. Let's not pretend you hold some moral high ground here. Do you need every comment followed by IMO or something ? George Lucas rights and legal position has never been in dispute.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Uh, there were few films that could touch the PT for that amount of VFX at that time, only Matrix and LOTR I'd say. That they "look like so many other films released today" is irrelevant because they were cutting edge for the time, just like the OT was in fact, and back then everyone jumped on that bandwagon too (e.g. Battlestar Galactica). Lucas was a trend-setter, make no mistake, whether he made his films with puppets or pixels.

Actually they were not cutting edge ...

[brps3]

So they're not upgrading the cockpit of the Falcon? Too bad because the cockpit of a modern passenger jet looks way more advanced.

Leia when asked by Luke if she remembers her mom she says "just images" but Luke doesnt remember her. So he has no images of his mom? This could be a mother daughter thing.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Elvis

Actually they were not cutting edge ...

Not from your hilariously skewed anti-Lucas viewpoint, no. Forget about the first fully CG-generated character to have a starring role in a feature length live action movie, forget about the 'digital backlot' idea which several shows have used since, forget about the pioneering usage of digital cameras which have basically taken over the entire movie-making industry.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Yet you speak as if it were, and that was my point.
Nobody owes you guys anything.

It was your decision to see and purchase the movies numerous times, and/or buy the merchandise. You are free individuals, and there was no clause that said you would own George Lucas, or his properties if you bought something.
Let's get real, shall we?

If someone buys my CD, that gives them the right to listen to my CD. Period.

Legally, he never owed anything to the fans. Ethically, I feel that he does/did (back when he still owned it).

While there was never any kind of legal clause stating that in exchange for all of these various purchases, he agrees to continue releasing the original versions of the movie, there's still a certain degree of F.U. to the fans when he refuses to do so. It's like here's all of these people who have effectively done Lucas a huge favor by loving the property he created, falling in love with it, seeing the films again and again, buying the merchandise, etc. And then when people simply ask to be able to see those same movies again in the latest home video formats (and properly mastered for said formats), he can't grant that, and people wanting and expecting it is something that he takes as an insult.

Some fan complaints and fan demands have been and can be unrealistic. I certainly don't expect him to go back and change/redo the prequels to fix the aspects about them that I feel were lacking.

But simply re-releasing existing films is not an outrageous request or out of line. Heck, that's pretty much the point of new, more advanced home video formats coming out... re-releasing existing films on them in addition to also release new/current movies.

It's not as if people wanting/expecting that with Star Wars (arguably one of the biggest film franchises of all time) is some kind of out-of-left-field concept. Yet those who defend Lucas act like it is. If it was, then getting old movies released on new formats in what is effectively their original versions, only with better picture and audio quality would be the exception and not the rule.

While I'm in favor of artistic rights up to a point, when said art is both a commercialized product (meaning that this wasn't simply a work of passion that the artist showed a few people but otherwise kept to himself) and has a massive cultural impact, there's a certain level of responsibility that goes with that. While the Hollywood studio system has bad aspects and can crap on artistic rights at times, Lucas has been a shining example of "artistic rights" carried WAY too far.

And like him, hate him, or anything in between, Lucas made his choices, and the fans reacted accordingly. Much of the controversy could have been avoided. He expected that after a few years people would just forget about the older versions and come to be fine with the changes... that never happened. And him re-tinkering with them every few years didn't help. Just as people get used to one version, more changes happen. So even younger fans who may not even be familiar with the originals start to get a taste of what it's like to have unfavorable (to some) changes to the movies they enjoy.

I'm glad that the original versions are finally coming out. Good on Disney for dong that. Frankly I'd love it if they gave us some kind of ultimate set with all versions of all of the movies (originals... with the option to watch ANH with or without the Ep IV: ANH title added... 1997, 2004, and 2011 versions). But if it is just the originals, I'll be happy with that.

[Geoff D]

You're right Dynamo, forget about the concepts of ownership and entitlement and all that other bullshit, it's about one word: responsibility. Lucas created this incredible series of films which basically changed movie-making forever, but instead of preserving them as the cultural artefacts which they undoubtedly are, he defaced them and basically told the fans to piss off and stick to their VHS versions if they wanted the old versions.

Lucas has obviously studied history and we know he's a keen art collector who's acutely aware of the importance of art as a historical touchstone, but he badly shirked his own duty to history when he decided to consign the originals to the bin.

On the one hand, it's sad that it took a new regime to recognise that and to restore the originals, but on the other, who's to say that Lucas wouldn't have done it to shill the new trilogy had he remained in charge of LFL? The restoration was started (and may have even been completed) by the time the Disney buyout was formally announced, so who lit the blue touchpaper? Did Bob Iger sweet-talk Lucas into starting it while the deal was being done, perhaps?

[simonynwa]

See as much I as I like the originals, I can't quite get behind this whole idea of responsibility that Lucas has. They are (were) his, he had his reasons and from a creative point of view it's understandable that he wants them to be his version. Trouble is he keeps changing his mind even on that

He is a little hypocritical, given his arguments for historical preservation in the past, but then to me the whole thing is so out of proportion on both sides it is quite ridiculous. It's three films (admittedly significant). They are out there and the changes made however poor have very little effect. People have become so hung up on changes that I struggle to see how anyone can watch either the originals or the Special Editions and just enjoy them for what they are. Han Solo still saves the day at the end of Star Wars, he still shoots Greedo, Vader still saves Luke at the end of Jedi. I can't quite get hung up on Vader shouting Nooooo or Greedo shooting first. (and bizarrely the more I watch it the less it bothers me). I sometimes don't even notice changes until they are pointed out - the rock in front of R2D2 I didnt even spot.

And even more so it is all a little pointless - its not like he has been successful at wiping the originals from history since everyone goes on about them so much

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Elvis

So basically you are saying he will ruin Star Wars. I want to see him turn back the clock and tone down the special effects. The only way to make it original now would be to let the story drive the films and not the effects

That will absolutely not happen. The core audience expects effects (or more accurately CGI) galore. I don't think story is a big issue anymore. These tent pole flicks have become amusement park ride movies. I think by now we are pretty far away from the Kurosawa influence. At the end of the day I think that Abrams will deliver his usual 3 star film but some fans will treat it like the second coming. I hope Abrams proves me wrong.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Yojimbo68

That will absolutely not happen. The core audience expects effects (or more accurately CGI) galore. I don't think story is a big issue anymore. These tent pole flicks have become amusement park ride movies. I think by now we are pretty far away from the Kurosawa influence. At the end of the day I think that Abrams will deliver his usual 3 star film but some fans will treat it like the second coming. I hope Abrams proves me wrong.

Sad but you may be right. He ruined Star Trek by turning it into an "action" fest which it was never meant to be now he has Star Wars. I am praying that he will turn back the clock but if not so be it. As long as I get my beloved three films in HD before the changes (as we are now expecting to) all is right in my world. You guys can have the rest.

Sadly he runs a real danger of not spending enough time with character development where we can really "care" about the people we are watching. If he does not spend more time on plot and story then these will go the way of the other pieces of garbage that we have seen. Wooden acting, horrible delivery with a bunch of stupid wham bam cgi and characters we don't give a "bleep" about! So unlike the "real" Star Wars.

[stvn1974]

While I dislike Abrams Star Trek films I put most of that blame on Kurtzman and Orci. A director can only do so much with a terrible screenplay. I know, I know, Abrams hired Kurtzman and Orci to write the screenplay and he could have changed things if he wanted but given a better script they would have been better films. Kurosawa has been brought up but even he couldn't make anything good out of a Kurtzman and Orci script. Hopefully Lawrence Kasdan can bring back the Empire Strikes Back/Raiders Of the Lost Ark magic.

I am hopeful that we get a remastered and restored unaltered Original Star War Trilogy blu-ray set and a great new Star Wars trilogy started in 2015.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

While I dislike Abrams Star Trek films I put most of that blame on Kurtzman and Orci. A director can only do so much with a terrible screenplay. I know, I know, Abrams hired Kurtzman and Orci to write the screenplay and he could have changed things if he wanted but given a better script they would have been better films. Kurosawa has been brought up but even he couldn't make anything good out of a Kurtzman and Orci script. Hopefully Lawrence Kasdan can bring back the Empire Strikes Back/Raiders Of the Lost Ark magic.

The casting of the new Star Trek was the only thing they got right. Alternate time line = stupid. Turning Spock into a little whiny b*** again stupid. They really missed a great, great opportunity to explore the Academy and slow it way down. 4 years of the Academy all the way to Capitan in one film....really? Sigh....the attention span of the audiences today.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

While I dislike Abrams Star Trek films I put most of that blame on Kurtzman and Orci. A director can only do so much with a terrible screenplay. I know, I know, Abrams hired Kurtzman and Orci to write the screenplay and he could have changed things if he wanted but given a better script they would have been better films. Kurosawa has been brought up but even he couldn't make anything good out of a Kurtzman and Orci script. Hopefully Lawrence Kasdan can bring back the Empire Strikes Back/Raiders Of the Lost Ark magic.

I am hopeful that we get a remastered and restored unaltered Original Star War Trilogy blu-ray set and a great new Star Wars trilogy started in 2015.

Don't forget that asshat Lindelof. Orci and Kurtzman seem to have a thing for sociopathic characters who never, ever get punished for their mistakes so that they never learn from them, so Lindelof must've supplied the 'who gives a shit it's just a MOVIE' sort of plotting that makes no goddamned sense whatsoever in Into Darkness.

Without any of them douchebags, I'm sure that JJ will produce a solid Star Wars film. It won't be anything groundbreaking (especially if the rumours so far are true) but it will be funny and fast paced and action packed, and that's about all I dare hope for.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

See as much I as I like the originals, I can't quite get behind this whole idea of responsibility that Lucas has. They are (were) his, he had his reasons and from a creative point of view it's understandable that he wants them to be his version. Trouble is he keeps changing his mind even on that

The responsibility I speak of isn't about him changing them because that's well within his rights as the creator and owner of the work; it's about not preserving the Academy-Award winning originals and basically treating them as if they don't exist. (You might not mind the changes but some people most certainly do. I like some, but not all of them and most of the Blu-ray alterations were particularly atrocious.) Still, Kubrick suppressed A Clockwork Orange in the UK up until his death and I don't see many people slating him for that (it seems as if us Brits have forgotten about that completely) so I guess it just depends how well-loved a filmmaker actually is when they pull shit like that. (Yes, I know Kubrick got death threats etc but you think he would've considered releasing it again after nearly 25 years!)