House: Two Stories (1986-1987) (Limited Edition)

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

That doesn't fix the incorrect composition. The rest of the movie would still be off center.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't though aren't they? Center the composition by cropping further and losing a load of relevant information from the frame. Keep it as is throughout or only fix the obviously problematic scenes and you at least get that relevant information, but the composition may be off (I guess this depends on how exactly Lakeshore matted it).

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Damned if they do, damned if they don't though aren't they? Center the composition by cropping further and losing a load of relevant information from the frame. Keep it as is throughout or only fix the obviously problematic scenes and you at least get that relevant information, but the composition may be off (I guess this depends on how exactly Lakeshore matted it).

But you're not losing relevant information. That information was never meant to be seen.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Damned if they do, damned if they don't though aren't they? Center the composition by cropping further and losing a load of relevant information from the frame. Keep it as is throughout or fix the obviously problematic scenes and you at least get that relevant information, but the composition may be off (I guess this depends on how exactly Lakeshore matted it).

Actually because the Arrow releases appear to have too much info on the left, top, and bottom, in most cases you could do about a 130% zoom and pan fully to the right to crop the unintended info without losing anything that shouldn't have been shown in the first place.

This won't perfectly fix all of the misframed Arrow releases, but it fixes most of them for most of the movie. It works quite well with House. Most displays are not going to have the ability to easily do this though, which is the problem.

[YelllowSamuel]

I would wager every one of those releases was framed based on the title and/or credit placement. I don't personally have House on DVD, can anyone vouch for what the title/credit placement is like on it?

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Damned if they do, damned if they don't though aren't they? Center the composition by cropping further and losing a load of relevant information from the frame. Keep it as is throughout or only fix the obviously problematic scenes and you at least get that relevant information, but the composition may be off (I guess this depends on how exactly Lakeshore matted it).

No, as it has already been explained that extra information was most likely added to the top/bottom to compensate for the extra chunk at the left. There are goofs in these films exclusive to the top/bottom of the Arrow editions which were never visible before.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Originally Posted by YelllowSamuel

I would wager every one of those releases was framed based on the title and/or credit placement. I don't personally have House on DVD, can anyone vouch for what the title/credit placement is like on it?

Yes, the titles are perfectly framed on all the affected titles I've seen (Arrow Blu-rays and older DVDs). A person who has worked for Arrow was able to confirm that Creepshow 2 was framed based on the credits and to quote them: "there was no shifting of framing between the titles and the test of the film."

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Let's take a look at the evidence, instead of hyperbole:[/url]Hyperbole?

Good lord man, you're the one saying Arrow can't be trusted based on five examples from their catalogue of hundreds of releases! Madness!

Hellraiser III: Don't give me examples, like I say a trained monkey can spot the issues. At least adress the statement from James White where he explained that Arrow were given masked masters FFS!

Dillinger: A wall of people? A wall of people you say? Are you blind man? Even in the tighter DVD framing you can clearly see it's a tiny gathering at best! Eight people are in that shot and only seven of them to the left of the guy in the brown suit. How the hell do you know it's supposed to be a wall of people anyway, Mr. Milius? Is it referenced in the scene "hey we've got a wall of people behind us here!"

The Stuff: Repetition of off-centre examples, no different to my examples where the framing of the blu-ray looks more natural with the extra info on the left. He said, she said, signifying nothing. Oh no a mirror is in the background! A mirror! Again, how do you know the mirror isn't supposed to be in the background of that shot, Mr. Cohen?

House/Creepshow II: Again, trained monkeys dude, you ain't providing any great insight here. If you accept James White's explanation that Lakeshore provided matted masters for Hellraiser III then you have to accept the possibility holds true for every Lakeshore/Arrow collaboration.

Case closed.

Not even close!

[Ruined]

Where exactly did I saw Arrow couldn't be trusted? I said White's statement was false, and it was proven false:"

James White: "..we made the decision to present as much image area as possible without displaying anything that shouldn't be visible in the frame." - Proven false. Lots of example of things that shouldn't be visible in the frame being visible.

If it was all Lakeshore's fault and not arrow, why were:
1. Image
2. StudioCanal
3. 88 Films
4. Shamrock Media
5. King Records

...all able to produce Blu-rays of several of the affected titles in HD with the correct framing, sometimes even in the same country/region?

Again, the problem remains unique to Arrow in a sea of releases, thus logic would dictate it is solely Arrow's problem. Specifically, they misframed them.

[Shingster]

Correct framing? In comparison to what? The old DVD? Your own professional expertise?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Correct framing? In comparison to what? The old DVD? Your own professional expertise?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=760

BTW,

Theatrical Trailer of Dillinger @ 1:00 also indicates the framing of the Arrow release is incorrect (DVD framing is correct, as the screencapture matches the trailer framing)

JAGD AUF DILLINGER - Trailer Deutsch - YouTube

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

But you're not losing relevant information. That information was never meant to be seen.

Unless you've got the negatives in your hand right now, how the hell do you know that? How do you know how Lakeshore made their 1.85:1 master?

With Hellraiser III/Creepshow II you only have left hand side so you can't adjust for that without being certain top/bottom, so maybe you could give Arrow the benefit of the doubt there. House is different though, here we clearly see left hand side and top/bottom issues so perhaps they should have been able to nail the correct framing from that? Again though, we aren't seeing what Arrow had to work with.

Like I've said from the start though, fans need to put pressure on Arrow to explain the issues with House. Perhaps a more detailed explanation of exactly what the nature of the masters were? I don't know. I guess this is now in the hands of reviewers for the big DVD/BD sites (like this one) and maybe professional commentators like RAH to address? Who else has the authority to bring about a recall IF there was an avoidable problem?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Unless you've got the negatives in your hand right now, how the hell do you know that? How do you know how Lakeshore made their 1.85:1 master?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. These 5 Arrow films have various anomalies at the edges due to their framing and they do not match framing of numerous current and past releases from other studios on Blu-ray and DVD, nor the theatrical trailers in a couple of cases I was able to match screencaps.

Therefore, while we do not have the negatives in our hand nor are we the cinematographer, we can safely assume the errors at the edges and odd composition is due to Arrow misframing the five films. There is no other logical answer for the many discrepancies and oddities.

Also the answer of "but it came like this" from Arrow rings hollow with me as there are numerous other Blu-ray companies who properly framed some of the very same films on Blu-ray (and the others not on Blu-ray were properly framed on DVD).

Like I've said from the start though, fans need to put pressure on Arrow to explain the issues with House. Perhaps a more detailed explanation of exactly what the nature of the masters were? I don't know. I guess this is now in the hands of reviewers for the big DVD/BD sites (like this one) and maybe professional commentators like RAH to address? Who else has the authority to bring about a recall IF there was an avoidable problem?

That is why it is not important to downplay clear and obvious errors, as in the case of these five Arrow films. Forums like this are ground zero to start the chatter that gets problems like this addressed. If everyone minimizes the problem and shrugs it off, well guess what? The company will think you will accept the defective product and gladly sell it to you without ever fixing it.

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Ruined

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=760

BTW,

Theatrical Trailer of Dillinger @ 1:00 also indicates the framing of the Arrow release is incorrect (DVD framing is correct, as the screencapture matches the trailer framing)

That seems to match the DVD framing alright (and the guy posting it knows his onions as well), but do we know how it was produced? Theatrical trailers are also not incontrovertible proof of stuff like this imo. "we matched the transfer to the theatrical trailers" said no film restorer, ever!

Look, I hopefully don't come across like I'm saying there can't be issues with Dillinger or The Stuff, I'm just making the case that without obvious anomalies in screen, you can't ascertain framing errors by just being a screenshot scientist. I'm sorry but you can't, you can suspect but not claim the way you do with utter confidence that it's wrong. Could they be framed wrong? Of course, any release by any distributor is open to errors. We know something's up with the Lakeshore properties, and I'm willing to bet that IF arrow had never released Hellraiser III with those obvious issues people would be far, far less confident that The Stuff or Dillinger have problems. People with clear agendas are clearly pouring over arrow releases looking for that left hand side roominess, they need it to be indicative of some grander conspiracy, and somewhere along the way the issue gets blown out of all proportion.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Shingster

That seems to match the DVD framing alright (and the guy posting it knows his onions as well), but do we know how it was produced? Theatrical trailers are also not incontrovertible proof of stuff like this imo. "we matched the transfer to the theatrical trailers" said no film restorer, ever!

When considering framing, we are just going to "present as much image area as was possible," said no film restorer, ever... except James White of Arrow!

Hope arrow doesn't get Terminator 2 or other Super 35mm films, otherwise we might see them present it 1.78:1 open matte to "present as much image area as was possible.

Not much left to debate. Framing problem is obvious, whether Arrow will take the financial hit to fix it on the other hand is very murky.


On the positive side, House 2 framing looks okay:
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=97720&i=1&l=0

[Shingster]

You are an insufferably arrogant poster Ruined. We shall agree to disagree! Can't argue with blind arrogance, had a good run but I concede defeat, the fight's finally left me!

[JohnCarpenterFan]

This is absurd especially when we have confirmation from MichaelB stating that someone who worked on Creepshow 2 said to him that there was no shifting of the frame between composited elements and the rest of the footage/animation.

If Arrow are framing the whole film based on how the credits are balanced (which only take up a few minutes of the film) then it should be no surprise to anyone that the majority of the presentation will look "off". I haven't seen Dillinger but if they did the same to that which they did to Creepshow 2 then I'm betting the titles/credits will be framed perfectly and the rest will look off.

Why people are trying to downplay Arrow's responsibility for these issues and attempting to pawn it off on another company is beyond me.

[GasmaskAvenger]

I bet most won't even notice the misframing in motion.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Man I didn't realize the issues with Arrow. Makes me just as cautious with their releases now just as with Scream Factory and Shout! Factory releases in the US now.

[t_rav]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Not much left to debate. Framing problem is obvious, whether Arrow will take the financial hit to fix it on the other hand is very murky.

It's not murky at all. Actually, it's crystal clear. They won't. Never have with this issue and never will.

Not hating on Arrow, though. I still love Arrow. All labels have had their problem transfers. I'd have to say the only label that currently has consistently great PQ, AQ, color timing, framing, etc is Vinegar Syndrome.

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by JohnCarpenterFan

Why people are trying to downplay Arrow's responsibility for these issues and attempting to pawn it off on another company is beyond me.

No one is downplaying responsibility or pawning it off on another company, but I'm pretty certain that in a few days posters like yourself JCFan will have this issue blown up so posters are petrified to order any number of arrow releases past and future. Other than top Arrow brass literally falling on a sword I doubt you'll find satisfaction.

Concrete information on two or three titles does not entitle posters (not referring to you here JCF, but other posters clearly have an agenda) to spread theories unchallenged on five, ten, however many titles based on suggestion and doubt alone, surely? People are allowed to disagree. I will say this though, you've already tried to make this House issue suit whatever paranoid doubts you have against Phenomena (which is a totally different matter entirely, doesn't appear to have any framing foibles from what we've seen so far) and also brought Audition into dispute (despite it only being slightly more open than previous releases), so where does it end? At some point you have to stop doubting every release from every distributor that's placed in front of you and accept that these matters are ultimately subjective and often far from concrete, and rarely is everyone pleased.

What have you personally done to get Arrow to address the House issue beyond whining on an internet forum? I mean, whining on an internet on an internet forum is the best place to start, but at some point consumers have got to go the retailer or distributor and say "hey, what's up here?". At least we're certain to see reviewers address the issue in relation to House (I hope). I seriously doubt a replacement scheme will happen (this ain't Universal, it ain't even Shout Factory) but if it it happens then I think timing will be key, coz once that regular edition is out, things get a lot more costly for arrow to fix (i'd imagine).