How to bi-amp onkyo 706

[Steve]

Originally Posted by ryandubbz

What center channel should i get to Most Perfectly match my Monitor 60's

CS1
CS10
CS2 or
CS20

If you go to this link on the Polk website, it's for the Monitor 60s. If you scroll down to the bottom there is a chart with two recommended systems to go with the Monitor 60s. It recommends the CS1 or CS2. I was saying earlier that I would go with the CS2 since it's the bigger of the two speakers and the center speaker sees the most use of all the speakers in your HT system.

It's my understanding that the CS10 and CS20 are the newer models of the CS1 and CS2. If you are unable to find a CS1 or CS2, I suspect the CS10 or CS20 would work very well in their stead.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by fireman325

If you go to this link on the Polk website, it's for the Monitor 60s. If you scroll down to the bottom there is a chart with two recommended systems to go with the Monitor 60s. It recommends the CS1 or CS2. I was saying earlier that I would go with the CS2 since it's the bigger of the two speakers and the center speaker sees the most use of all the speakers in your HT system.

It's my understanding that the CS10 and CS20 are the newer models of the CS1 and CS2. If you are unable to find a CS1 or CS2, I suspect the CS10 or CS20 would work very well in their stead.

Exactly.

I ran the CS2 with the 60's when I had them, and thought they meshed very well. Don runs the CS1 and likes it quite a bit. I don't think any of those are a bad choice.

[dewd]

OK, here are my thought on passive bi-amping....

First, no where can I find any documentation that states when bi-amping using only the 706 are you splitting the frequency. The 706 is simply sending the same signal to both outputs. Now the highs require very little power. So when you use 2 outputs you are really only adding a tiny bit to the lower end. Now, having seen the dramatic drop in power when using all 7 speakers, in reality all you are doing is LOWERING the overall power to your mains (remember you are still using the same power supply).

Now, lets assume I'm wrong and the AVR is splitting the frequency. How does the AVR now where to split it? It would have to know a lot of details about your speakers. Since there is no where that you actually input this info (not that you would know it anyway), there is no way the AVR could accurately split the signal.

Finally, lets say the AVR does split and does it properly... Why would you do it? You are already splitting the lower frequency to the sub. Lower frequencies require more power (hence your 300+ watt amps in most decent subs). What would you gain?

So what is really happening when you bi-amp the 706 is instead of sending 78 watts to all the drivers, you are sending 28 watts to all the drivers. Watts may not be as big as marketing make them seem, but that much of a drop is HUGE (nearly twice the SPL lost).

NOTE: I'm only talking about passive bi-amping. Well designed active bi-amping can be better since the crossovers are handle prior to the signal being amplified.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

OK, here are my thought on passive bi-amping....

First, no where can I find any documentation that states when bi-amping using only the 706 are you splitting the frequency. The 706 is simply sending the same signal to both outputs.

This is what it states in my 606 manual..... I can't imagine that the 706 would handle it any differently. Were it sending an identical feed.... it would not matter which receiver outputs you connected to which speaker inputs.

The FRONT L/R and SURR BACK L/R terminal posts
can be used with front speakers and surround back
speakers respectively, or bi-amped to provide separate
tweeter and woofer feeds for front speakers, providing
improved bass and treble performance.
• When bi-amping is used, the AV receiver is able to
drive up to 5.1 speakers in the main room.
• For bi-amping, the FRONT L/R terminal posts connect
to the front speakers’ tweeter terminals. And the
SURR BACK L/R terminal posts connect to the front
speakers’ woofer terminals.

In theory, just providing each driver with it's own power source could result in better sound. Since the front sound stage provides the vast majority of the surround sound experience... I don't think the loss of a few watts of power is going to be crippling to the rear surrounds.

I'm not saying that it will provide a huge difference in sound.... I once again state that the OP should try it both ways... and see which he personally prefers.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

This is what it states in my 606 manual..... I can't imagine that the 706 would handle it any differently. Were it sending an identical feed.... it would not matter which receiver outputs you connected to which speaker inputs.

Huh? You have to go into the menu and tell the AVR to 'bi-amp'. The AVR then sends the same signal to the fronts and rear surround outputs.

Originally Posted by robinandtami

In theory, just providing each driver with it's own power source could result in better sound. Since the front sound stage provides the vast majority of the surround sound experience... I don't think the loss of a few watts of power is going to be crippling to the rear surrounds.

I'm not saying that it will provide a huge difference in sound.... I once again state that the OP should try it both ways... and see which he personally prefers.

I disagree completely. By cutting the wattage this much you are loosing 6db. So if your system can play at reference (85db with 105db peaks), when 'bi-amping' you can only play at 79db with much lower peaks. It is more than a few watts.

We can discuss this more, but there are many great resources on the web.

Just be sure to eliminate any resources with something to gain

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

Huh? You have to go into the menu and tell the AVR to 'bi-amp'. The AVR then sends the same signal to the fronts and rear surround outputs.




I disagree completely. By cutting the wattage this much you are loosing 6db. So if your system can play at reference (85db with 105db peaks), when 'bi-amping' you can only play at 79db with much lower peaks. It is more than a few watts.

We can discuss this more, but there are many great resources on the web.

Just be sure to eliminate any resources with something to gain

It does not specifically say that it sends distinct signals.... but it does specifically state that one is to be connected to the tweeters and one to the woofers.... so there is certainly a strong implication that it is sending separate signals. But even if it is the same signal.... there could still be something to be gained by providing each driver type with it's own independent power supply.

VERY few people actually listen at reference volume in a home theater.... unless they have a tremendously ginormous home theater.... in which case they wouldn't be using just a simple AVR for sound anyway would they? Anyone using reference volume in an average sized home theater would almost certainly come away with hearing loss.

I know you only use Audyssey for calibration..... but do you have an SPL meter? If so... crank up your HT to 65db's... then 75.... then 85. I know I have a LOT of air volume in my room.... as it is over 30'X15'.... and I find 75db's to be literally painfully loud. Again I say.... the loss of a few db's is not going to cripple the surround experience.

I'm not sure why we are going back and forth here anyway. The OP is the only one who can judge which way sounds best to his ears. I did bi-amp my fronts with my 606 before I went to a 7.1 set-up... and I will say that I did notice a slight improvement in the quality of sound.... especially for music. Nothing earth shattering..... but also certainly nothing that in any way whatsoever detracted from the overall surround experience.

[aramis109]

I'm pretty sure it splits them in some rudimentary fashion- otherwise there would be no point whatsoever.

Also, I want to see some links that 7ch= 28 watts. I acknowledge there will be a power drop, but that's far more droop than my 805 does in the sheets that I have looked at.

[dewd]

Actually I have measured peaks of 110db with Master and Commander (I was doing an experiment for a thread at AVS). I usually watch -7 from reference, but with action movies I often turn it up to 0. Reference is not loud if your room and EQ are correct. What gets loud is when certain frequencies are louder than others (like boomy bass for example or overcooked highs). If reference was dangerous, I would expect all sound mixers to have short careers.

Aramis, I'm looking for the measured output for the 706. I thought it was at Sound and Vision but I can't find it right now. I originally thought it was a typo since my 705 does not drop off that much.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

Actually I have measured peaks of 110db with Master and Commander (I was doing an experiment for a thread at AVS). I usually watch -7 from reference, but with action movies I often turn it up to 0. Reference is not loud if your room and EQ are correct. What gets loud is when certain frequencies are louder than others (like boomy bass for example or overcooked highs). If reference was dangerous, I would expect all sound mixers to have short careers.

The danger in sound to your ears is in the pressure that the sound creates. That pressure is of course relative to the air volume of the listening area. In short.... 85db's in an open space or a very large commercial theater sized room... is not going to cause hearing damage. 85db's in a properly sealed listening environment the size of an average home theater is uncomfortably loud for the average listener. Those with HT's that are not sealed.... I'm sure could listen at higher volumes with a greater degree of comfort... but my room is completely closed off.... so it pressurizes at a volume far below 85dbs. I believe that's why it's recomended to calibrate home theaters systems to 75db's, instead of the reference level used in commercial theaters.

[aramis109]

Well, just to clarify, the pink noise test tones used in most AVR's are played back at 75db's because 85db's and higher was found to be uncomfortable when calibrating. That's why you set it for 75db, but reference is still reference (which should be 105db).

[dewd]

That's right - most calibration is -30 db (or 75db). Films are mixed at 85 db with 105 db peaks (115db peaks for the LFE channel).

But... 85db is 85 db no matter if your room is sealed or not. How much power it takes to get to 85 db is another story.

BTW - My room is sealed with the exception of a small door. It is also not large (18x22x8). My speakers are on the higher end for sensitivity and my amp pushes (or is supposed to) 100 watts. Prolly not quite enough to truly get reference, but I'm pretty darn close.

Now last time I seen The Who in concert it was outdoors. Previously it was indoors. Both times I'm pretty certain they were playing way above 85db. And I didn't care at either venue

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

But... 85db is 85 db no matter if your room is sealed or not. How much power it takes to get to 85 db is another story.

Of course 85db's is 85db's.... but hopefully we can both agree that standing 5 feet away from a speaker playing at 85db's in the middle of an open air football stadium is going to sound MUCH different than standing 5 feet away from a speaker playing at 85db's in a 6 foot square broom closet. Would you not agree?

[dewd]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Of course 85db's is 85db's.... but hopefully we can both agree that standing 5 feet away from a speaker playing at 85db's in the middle of an open air football stadium is going to sound MUCH different than standing 5 feet away from a speaker playing at 85db's in a 6 foot square broom closet. Would you not agree?

True, but at 5 feet it is no longer 85db (assuming you calibrated for something other that 5 feet). You loose 3 db for every couple feet (my math is not so good tonight - if you are interested I will find the exact number). When you calibrate your system (and when Audyssey calibrates it), 0 on your volume control should = reference at your listening position. Of course if you get closer, it will be louder.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

True, but at 5 feet it is no longer 85db (assuming you calibrated for something other that 5 feet). You loose 3 db for every couple feet (my math is not so good tonight - if you are interested I will find the exact number). When you calibrate your system (and when Audyssey calibrates it), 0 on your volume control should = reference at your listening position. Of course if you get closer, it will be louder.

On Onkyo receivers...... 0 is no volume.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

On Onkyo receivers...... 0 is no volume.

Only if you have it set for absolute instead of relative (at least on the 705 and above).

Dang, talk about derailing a thread. ryandubbz, are you still with us?

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dewd

Only if you have it set for absolute instead of relative (at least on the 705 and above).

Dang, talk about derailing a thread. ryandubbz, are you still with us?

I can't speak for any other models.... but there is no such option in the 606 volume set up menu. In any case... I am done here.

Once again... to the OP.... just try both and see what sounds better to your ear. I think your how to question has been sufficiently answered. The whether you SHOULD or not... is a question that only you can answer. I would say bi-amp it for a couple of weeks.... long enough to truly get a feel for what it sounds like... and then undo it to compare. I can say that in my set up.... it was a small improvement.

[ryandubbz]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I can't speak for any other models.... but there is no such option in the 606 volume set up menu. In any case... I am done here.

Once again... to the OP.... just try both and see what sounds better to your ear. I think your how to question has been sufficiently answered. The whether you SHOULD or not... is a question that only you can answer. I would say bi-amp it for a couple of weeks.... long enough to truly get a feel for what it sounds like... and then undo it to compare. I can say that in my set up.... it was a small improvement.

Yah Im hear thanks alot guys for all the info. Very much appreciated, I just wish i knew if i should bi amp them or not, cause it sucks switching them back and fourth, I have them un bi-amped right now and I thought these speakers would sound better than what they do. Basically my settings are

Fronts 60hz
Center 150hz
Surrounds 150hz
Sub 120hz
Are these good?

Are there really any other settings i can tweak with,

How much would you turn up the bass and treble on the receiver also right now there at 0

I was hoping to have more bass come out of these m60's but if you put them at 60 or 80 they really dont get to much bass then right. SO the fronts are really just for high to midrange?

[dewd]

The sub should handle the bass.

BTW - what sub do you have?

[ryandubbz]

Originally Posted by dewd

The sub should handle the bass.

BTW - what sub do you have?

silly yamaha one YST-SW012 Comparison Specifications
•Front-Firing Active Subwoofer
•8" Magnetically Shielded Cone Driver
•Advanced YST II (Yamaha Active Servo Technology)
•Linear Port For Reduced Intake Noise
•Power Handling: 100 Watts Dynamic Power
•Low Frequency Response: 28 Hz - 200 Hz
•High-Density MDF Enclosure

[dewd]

The 5.25 inch drivers in your polks are more for mid-range. Polks states the response goes as low at 37hz, but I have trouble believing that with the driver configuration (not that there is anything wrong with that). I would still use your sub for the bass frequencies.

Again, you need to experiment. Move the sub around the room (turn Audssey off until you find the best spot and then recalibrate). Maybe try it in a corner. You could try turning the sub off in the menu and set your Polks to Full Range and see if you like it better. This is the 'fun' part of the hobby

You will probably want a better sub in the future (after you get a matched center). Don't skimp on the sub. Wait until you can invest at least $500 into a decent entry level. Going from the Yamaha to a $200 Dayton would be an upgrade, but going to something like the SVS PB10 would an investment you can enjoy for many years.