Blu-Ray meeting next week. Fox titles and "key partner" announcement

[zombie]

I've had to edit some posts, including my own due to foul language. I did receive a complaint. Let's all try to avoid dropping F-bombs and S-bombs in the future.

[john_1958]

Well I for one am tired of SD DVDs and haven't bought one in past 4 months and not in favor of hd-dvd which looks like EDTV viewing. So the only option is Blu-ray and doesn't bother me of the movies currently on BD.

Just wish all the companies who support Blu-ray would produce truehd thats suppose to be beyond HD and stop worrying about accss protection and just get there product on the market
Or is there a method to delays like ironing out all the kinks

those complaining about titles are always wrong

[JTK]

Originally Posted by nyg

I've had to edit some posts, including my own due to foul language. I did receive a complaint. Let's all try to avoid dropping F-bombs and S-bombs in the future.

Sorry I missed the show.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by nyg

I've had to edit some posts, including my own due to foul language. I did receive a complaint. Let's all try to avoid dropping F-bombs and S-bombs in the future.

There is still one out there (a quote of mine)

I can understand peoples frustrations, and have them myself. For me butchering The Fifth Element was enough to drop plans of any early BD buying. It was unforgivable. Unless they do it properly - then I might consider forgiveness.

But really we don't need to get all emotional about it. It appeared from your choice of language that you were pretty upset - I am glad to hear that you are calm.

I agree that Sony needs to be beaten with a stick for what they did at lauch and they deserve a lot of the blame for what Lionsgate and MGM did, as well as Warner's first discs (though they were not such a problem) since the were the gating factor for advanced codec authoring by all accounts.

That said I do not equate BD and Sony and think that there is a lot more at play here.

Sept 5 should see the beginning of the new wave. Warner discs with VC-1 codecs.

Then later in the month the Disney discs. I wouldn't mind betting that these discs get the most scrutiny yet. Really it is how these discs are received that is key. So far the HD DVD exclusives are good and the BD exclusives are not. Disney could easily change that equation. I want my Jay and Silent Bob! And Kill Bill by Christmas... but only if they have the quality we need.

All that said, the disc format itself, aside from the advanced codec authoring for BD which now appears to be resolved, really should have no effect on image quality. If we traded the formats, everyone would be hating HD DVD (though still hating Sony of course ).

To summarise, I don't so much see it as BD launch failure as Sony Pictures, MGM and to a lesser extent Lionsgate HD disc launch failure.

Now we need to see what Disney and Fox are like with their HD disc launches...

[ethan]

edited: Sorry I read the thread diagonally, I realise it's about the codecs the sony studios used :-)

I assume Panasonic, Sony and Pioneer should have much better players than Samsung, based on the quality of their DVD players, they are among the best while samsung and toshiba are among the worst. All reviews I read said the Toshiba hddvd is equally crap or barely better than the Samsung bluray. I'll wait for a player from ANY of the other manufacturers thank you.

Of course, there isn't any other manufacturer supporting hddvd, so it's already over for them, as far as I'm concerned. Why is anyone rooting for hddvd is beyond me:
- much less studio support
- no hardware support except toshiba, desperately selling at a loss
- less storage
- less bitrate, bluray has a 50% higher bitrate with the same codecs, that is a major point that everyone seem to ignore

The studios are not stupid, they won't come out with their best titles while there are only 10,000's of players out there. They are waiting for the better encoding softwares, and most of all, they are waiting for the millions of players that will be sold in the november/december period. They did the same thing with DVD. Good old chicken and egg problem.

Me? I'm waiting for the Panasonic player : they didn't let me down with my great rp82. I'm not waiting for better titles from the major sudios, because I'm ready to gamble a little to force the chicken and egg problem out.

[Zvi]

Originally Posted by ethan

Why is anyone rooting for hddvd is beyond me:
- much less studio support
- no hardware support except toshiba, desperately selling at a loss
- less storage
- less bitrate, bluray has a 50% higher bitrate with the same codecs, that is a major point that everyone seem to ignore

I am rooting for HD DVD (being a BD supporter for very long time for the reasons you listed above). If not HD DVD I really, really doubt BD would be making any moves for improvment at all. And I am sure HD rease would've ben postponed 2-3 years or more. If not HD DVD there would be no baseline. Current HD TV channels suffer from overcompression, downresing and god knows what else. Still it's much better than normal DVDs, but true HD is something entirely different
And if not HD DVD there is or would be no fallback plan if Sony and others manage to screw up this BD thingy completely...
So, whatever helps and pushes BDA to get their act together and deserve our vallet votes works for me.

Competition is necessary, even in this fromat war form.

Look @ M$ for the clear example. Takes them years to roll next version of the product, comes out buggy as hell, then endless patches and missing features and delays and so on... They never bothered to update MS IE 6.0 till firefox started taking market share.

[ethan]

Originally Posted by Zvi

I am rooting for HD DVD (being a BD supporter for very long time for the reasons you listed above). If not HD DVD I really, really doubt BD would be making any moves for improvment at all. And I am sure HD rease would've ben postponed 2-3 years or more. If not HD DVD there would be no baseline. Current HD TV channels suffer from overcompression, downresing and god knows what else. Still it's much better than normal DVDs, but true HD is something entirely different
And if not HD DVD there is or would be no fallback plan if Sony and others manage to screw up this BD thingy completely...
So, whatever helps and pushes BDA to get their act together and deserve our vallet votes works for me.

Competition is necessary, even in this fromat war form.

Look @ M$ for the clear example. Takes them years to roll next version of the product, comes out buggy as hell, then endless patches and missing features and delays and so on... They never bothered to update MS IE 6.0 till firefox started taking market share.

WTF are you talking about ?
Your point is fallacious, and even ironic. What happened is the exact opposite of that you say. THe DVD forum had chosen Toshiba's HDDVD which was a DVD9 and H264 format as an interim format before BluRay. The industry disagreed and started a mass exodus to the BluRay camp because of the stubborness of the DVD forum. Then Toshiba changed their specs at the last minute, supporting inferior capacity and bitrate, but same disc production. It was too late, the BluRay camp won the most hardware support, and also the best studio support because they forced competition to the DVD forum. Now, Toshiba is fighting like a cornered animal.

The BDA created a specification. They are superior in every point. Supporting both format is the best way to make both fail. Hddvd will die, make no mistake about that, but if it takes too long to die it will hold the whole industry back. BluRay will not fail but it will take some time to recover.

That's the whole concept of "Industry Standard"

Once hddvd dies, THEN the studios will compete for the best encoding techniques for bluray, and the hardware companies will compete for the best bluray players, just like what happened with DVD.

The competition is on 3 fronts :

1. the Standard
2. the hardware
3. the software

The Standard

The only way for the consumer to have the ability to "vote" as you say, is to have a standard set in stone, so that any hardware works with any software. You hope the best standard win of course. In that particular case, you seem to agree with me that Blu Ray is the obvious winner.

The Hardware

All the best hardware companies are all on BluRay's side, because they understand the importance of an industry standard. Toshiba is alone because they invested so much in hddvd patents, they have nothing more to loose and are receiving gobs of money from microsoft. Microsoft want both formats to loose because it's in the way of their xbox hd streaming service and a win for bluray would make their pathetic fight against the ps3 even more pathetic. Loosing over one billions a year on their game division already to barely beat the gamecube (while nintendo made loads of cash on their admitedly worst console market share yet), it would only get worse for them, bluray is in their way.

The Software

Studios are waiting for a clear winner. As long as they wait, they have nothing to loose. But if both formats fail, it would be a gigantic business down the drain. It's a gamble for them to give something while holding the most lucrative movies for a big release when there's a big enough userbase. They voiced their support in a big majority for BluRay.


So. Please answer this : Considering the BDA made the industry standard known as BluRay, you want to pressure the BDA to do WHAT exactly ?

If you disagree on the software front, it has NOTHING to do with the BDA, in fact the BDA standard offer them more bitrate for the same codecs, and more storage space.

If you disagree on the hardware front, again it has NOTHING to do with the BDA, any hardware company can put out a good player. And in fact the best hardware companies have already chosen which side to support. There is no competition on the hddvd side, it's the crappy Toshiba or nothing.


I want the best movies in the best format on the best player. Competition will work on the hardware and software front, only if a single standard is supported. We're almost there. I hope the whole industry support the best standard and ditch the hddvd looser quickly. Then I can play my Pixar movies on my panasonic bluray.

[hmurchison]

Rebuttal time.

Originally Posted by ethan

The industry disagreed and started a mass exodus to the BluRay camp because of the stubborness of the DVD forum. Then Toshiba changed their specs at the last minute, supporting inferior capacity and bitrate, but same disc production.

Blu-Ray was never submitted to the DVD Forum for approval. It's a bit like complaining about government policy when you don't vote.

Originally Posted by ethan

The BDA created a specification. They are superior in every point.

Not only is Blu-Ray "not" superior in every point but the players have features "missing "that I deem important. A $500 A1 offers more functionality that benefits the movie lover over the Samsung player at twice the price. HD DVD is using iHD on disc already. There hasn't been one Blu-Ray disc shipped with BD-Java interactivity. Considering the 30 something discs shipped thus far on BD and the lack of quality of many your "superior" comment must pertain to specs only because the end result is certainly not cutting muster.

I read the rest of your post and it was so vague on actual content I grew bored. BTW it is "lose" as in "Lose your shirt "rather than "Loose"

Feel free to buy your BD player and enjoy it. I myself will own a BD player but that doesn't mean I have to fail to realize the benefits of both players. BD is superior in specs but this superiority won't necessarily translate into a better picture and better sound.

It's standard engineering. You don't add piece to a design unless it adds a tangible advantage to the product. The optics of Blu-Ray are impressive but in my opinion it goes a little too far. I don't need 50GB if

A) 30GB gives me a 4hr runtime with lossless audio and high quality video

B) The 50GB is prohibitively expensive.

Many people seem to have a problem fully understanding the specs involved. It's not easy and one tends to look at the larger number and assume that is better. I'm not suprised that Blu-Ray doesn't look as good as HD DVD because when Sony said they were going to deliver on MPEG2 I knew that the they were in trouble after the initial results with VC-1 exceeded just about everyones expectations. MPEG2 is a known quantity and without DL BD-ROM the space crunch was on. Thus we have irrefutable proof that specs alone cannot and will not denote superiority. When VC-1 ships for Blu-Ray it will look every bit as good as the comparable HD DVD disc. It will not look better it will not look worse.

After peeling back the layers of each platform I think both have a right to exist. Let the market decide which platform they want. Blu-Ray may win by the refusal of some studios to make discs for both and I think this would be a hollow victory. These same studios are the ones asking that consumers respect their content and not pirate are looking a wee bit selfish by having thousands of potential paying customers looking for their movies and steadily refusing to support them.

I think the format war has definitely been beneficial. Without Toshiba delivering on their promises we would have never known how high the bar could be set. Blu-Ray has yet to reach that level but they should. I'm excited about owning both platforms because I'm a movie lover but common sense tells me that Toshiba hit upon the right mix of features that the market needed.

One replicator offers replication of both HD DVD and Blu-Ray. The Dual Layer HD DVD disc is a paltry $.06 more than the smaller Single Layer BD-ROM. I think that highlights why HD DVD has a fighting chance of success. Factor in a more simple lens assembly that supports CD/DVD/HD DVD in one laser assembly and you get another cost savings.

Both formats have a lot to offer. It'll be fun to watch which format resonates with the consumer most.

[ethan]

Can you give a short bullet list of any advantage you see to the hddvd specs because I haven't found any in your post. Only a big blob of fallacies which I don't have time to rebute right now.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

It's standard engineering. You don't add piece to a design unless it adds a tangible advantage to the product. The optics of Blu-Ray are impressive but in my opinion it goes a little too far. I don't need 50GB if

A) 30GB gives me a 4hr runtime with lossless audio and high quality video

B) The 50GB is prohibitively expensive.

Unfortunately, A) is not true. Even using VC-1 most 2 hour movies are NOT less than 15GB when lossless audio is included. Thus most 4 hour movies will NOT fit on a 30GB disk. Thus for many 4+ hour movies 30GB HD DVD disks will not work and 50GB Blu-ray disks will be required.

Also, I've never seen any factual evidence supporting the statement that 50GB is "prohibitively expensive". As with all other shipping optical, pre recorded media, the cost of the disk is a very small fraction of what the final retail price is. A 50GB disk could be twice as expensive as a 30GB disk and still be a very small fraction of the overall price -- and thus not even be noticeable to the end user.

[JTK]

I'm supporting HD-DVD right now because I wanted the best.

When BD finally gets its act together, I'll buy it as well.

Simple.

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Rebuttal time.

Blu-Ray was never submitted to the DVD Forum for approval. It's a bit like complaining about government policy when you don't vote.

No, its more like complaining about a corrupt organization who changed the way votes were counted within the forum to approve a specification, when we all know very well Blu-ray was planned to be submitted for approval--they just didn't get a chance, thus why you had the mass exodus to the BDA. Frankly, the DVD Forum's own damn fault, and I hope they sincerely get what they deserve--a failed format in the form of HD DVD. No, I'd say its more like complaining about a government policy when you weren't given the right to vote, especially with another government policy on the table.

It's standard engineering. You don't add piece to a design unless it adds a tangible advantage to the product. The optics of Blu-Ray are impressive but in my opinion it goes a little too far. I don't need 50GB if

A) 30GB gives me a 4hr runtime with lossless audio and high quality video

B) The 50GB is prohibitively expensive.

Other than agreeing with Shadowself 100%, I do want to add that it is indeed standard engineering. You have HD DVD which has under-engineered to find ways to cut costs for themselves as a manufacturer while all the while delivering a format with limited space, lower bit rates, and discs that hold a lot more data with the same protection as current DVDs. Was this because they (Toshiba) had the consumer in mind? I tend to not think so, they clearly cut corners to line their own pockets. Sounds like another company I know who has decided to partner with them.

Then you have Blu-ray, a more forward-looking format, one that takes into consideration the needs of future HD media with more space, higher bit rates, and discs at the SAME PRICE that offer special scratch resistance to protect media. In my opinion, the Blu-ray spec doesn't go to far, it brings to HD what is needed.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by ethan

Can you give a short bullet list of any advantage you see to the hddvd specs because I haven't found any in your post. Only a big blob of fallacies which I don't have time to rebute right now.

Sure

1) HD DVD offers lower production costs. This is bore out in replication costs and hardware costs.

http://www.proactionmedia.com/hd_dvd_replication.htm

HD DVD Replication

Single Layer 15GB Dual Layer 30GB

5,000 Discs $1.69 ea $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.55 ea $1.85 ea
25,000 Discs $1.45 ea $1.69 ea
100,000 Discs $1.35 ea $1.55 ea

Blu-Ray Replication

Single Layer 25GB

5,000 Discs $1.99 ea
10,000 Discs $1.79 ea
25,000 Discs $1.59 ea
100,000 Discs $1.49 ea

http://www.proactionmedia.com/blu-ray_replication.htm

The ability to choose SL or DL media in HD DVD is a plus. Not everyone needs the larger data.

2) More mandatory features- HD DVD requires mandatory secondary video decoders, secondary audio decoders and mandatory ethernet. This ensures that "every" player will have a capable base in which to add functionality.

3). iHD is the only authoring layer so it is mandatory and that means you have the capability to go from basic menu creation all the way up to high interactivity, games and networking functionality using one tool.

These are a nice start. I don't consider HD DVD the better format but rather the more complete specification. A Blu-Ray player can be designed to have all of these features but since many parts are not mandatory in the BD spec you can't guarantee that the lower end players will support such features.

[Psiweaver]

Yeah which is why Blu-ray is currently having the DL problem because they didn't get it worked into the spec in the right amount of time.

[AV_Integrated]

Originally Posted by ethan

THe DVD forum had chosen Toshiba's HDDVD which was a DVD9 and H264 format as an interim format before BluRay. The industry disagreed and started a mass exodus to the BluRay camp because of the stubborness of the DVD forum. Then Toshiba changed their specs at the last minute, supporting inferior capacity and bitrate, but same disc production. It was too late, the BluRay camp won the most hardware support, and also the best studio support because they forced competition to the DVD forum. Now, Toshiba is fighting like a cornered animal.

The BDA created a specification. They are superior in every point. Supporting both format is the best way to make both fail. Hddvd will die, make no mistake about that, but if it takes too long to die it will hold the whole industry back. BluRay will not fail but it will take some time to recover.

That's the whole concept of "Industry Standard"

Once hddvd dies, THEN the studios will compete for the best encoding techniques for bluray, and the hardware companies will compete for the best bluray players, just like what happened with DVD.

The competition is on 3 fronts :

1. the Standard
2. the hardware
3. the software

The Standard

The only way for the consumer to have the ability to "vote" as you say, is to have a standard set in stone, so that any hardware works with any software. You hope the best standard win of course. In that particular case, you seem to agree with me that Blu Ray is the obvious winner.

The Hardware

All the best hardware companies are all on BluRay's side, because they understand the importance of an industry standard. Toshiba is alone because they invested so much in hddvd patents, they have nothing more to loose and are receiving gobs of money from microsoft. Microsoft want both formats to loose because it's in the way of their xbox hd streaming service and a win for bluray would make their pathetic fight against the ps3 even more pathetic. Loosing over one billions a year on their game division already to barely beat the gamecube (while nintendo made loads of cash on their admitedly worst console market share yet), it would only get worse for them, bluray is in their way.

The Software

Studios are waiting for a clear winner. As long as they wait, they have nothing to loose. But if both formats fail, it would be a gigantic business down the drain. It's a gamble for them to give something while holding the most lucrative movies for a big release when there's a big enough userbase. They voiced their support in a big majority for BluRay.


So. Please answer this : Considering the BDA made the industry standard known as BluRay, you want to pressure the BDA to do WHAT exactly ?

If you disagree on the software front, it has NOTHING to do with the BDA, in fact the BDA standard offer them more bitrate for the same codecs, and more storage space.

If you disagree on the hardware front, again it has NOTHING to do with the BDA, any hardware company can put out a good player. And in fact the best hardware companies have already chosen which side to support. There is no competition on the hddvd side, it's the crappy Toshiba or nothing.


I want the best movies in the best format on the best player. Competition will work on the hardware and software front, only if a single standard is supported. We're almost there. I hope the whole industry support the best standard and ditch the hddvd looser quickly. Then I can play my Pixar movies on my panasonic bluray.

A few points...

1. Blu-ray existed before the DVD Forum had made any moves towards a next generation format. Sony had made deals and arrangements with most of the founding BDA for this next generation HD disc format. Then, in response, the DVD Forum got on the HD bandwagon. Blu-ray was never submitted to the DVD Forum because the BDA already existed. The DVD forum is for DVD, not HD, so why bother submitting an existing, established next generation standard for approval to a group that has ntohing to do with the next generation of HD?

2. I would tend to disagree with what you consider the competition to be about... IMO, the competition is about:
A. Market penetration
B. Market penetration
C. Market penetration

The rest will follow. The way you achieve market penetration is by saturating the market, or by offerring exceptional value, or by offerring exceptional quality. The BDA will saturate the market, but currently can't come close on the value of HD-DVD. PS3 may be the kicker for a phenomenal value, but has yet to be seen or known of. QUALITY is definitely possible with Blu-ray, but they are getting their butts kicked right now by HD-DVD. Basically, the BDA is acting like GM of the mid-80s - with German pricing. Yes, we will have players everywhere, from all the companies you know, but we will charge you an arm and a leg, and quality isn't that good. Of course, all that could change very quickly - which is what I expect. Because you better believe that if quality doesn't come way up quickly, pricing MUST go down very quickly.

People vote every day - a standard is the opposite of a choice. When there is a 'standard' people don't have choices and they can't vote. It doesn't make sense at all to say "Make everything the same, then let people choose." What makes sense is to go "Put everything out there and see what sells and what people think of it." Then people have choice, and the best can be decided upon.

Bottom line, which some people don't like to hear: The Toshiba HD-DVD player is not crappy. If you disagree, start reading reviews with your eyes open. In review after review, after review, after review... HD-DVD is getting praise while Blu-ray is getting slammed. This should NOT be the case and until it is not the case, HD-DVD is not going away. But, I still am in agreement that Blu-ray is strategically positioned to dominate this format war.

Oh - and Pixar movies don't exist anymore... haven't you heard? Disney owns them all.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Shadowself

Unfortunately, A) is not true. Even using VC-1 most 2 hour movies are NOT less than 15GB when lossless audio is included. Thus most 4 hour movies will NOT fit on a 30GB disk. Thus for many 4+ hour movies 30GB HD DVD disks will not work and 50GB Blu-ray disks will be required.

Also, I've never seen any factual evidence supporting the statement that 50GB is "prohibitively expensive". As with all other shipping optical, pre recorded media, the cost of the disk is a very small fraction of what the final retail price is. A 50GB disk could be twice as expensive as a 30GB disk and still be a very small fraction of the overall price -- and thus not even be noticeable to the end user.

Let's do the math

12 mbps VC-1 = 5.4 GB per hour. Thus a 15GB disc can hold 2.7 hrs of video. TrueHD requires roughly 3Mbps per channel so if we add two track TrueHD to the 12Mbps video we have 18Mbps which gives us 1.85 hours of total runtime. The audio may be less I'm guessing that it's 3mbps per channel because 7.1 TrueHD requires 18Mbps.

Also I don't think you really need factual evidence to support the high cost of 50GB DL discs. If Sony can't even ship the discs then it's fair to say it's "unobtainium" right now at any cost. Low yields mean higher costs and that translates into higher prices for consumers or lower margins for producers.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by Marzetta7

Other than agreeing with Shadowself 100%, I do want to add that it is indeed standard engineering. You have HD DVD which has under-engineered to find ways to cut costs for themselves as a manufacturer while all the while delivering a format with limited space, lower bit rates, and discs that hold a lot more data with the same protection as current DVDs. Was this because they (Toshiba) had the consumer in mind? I tend to not think so, they clearly cut corners to line their own pockets. Sounds like another company I know who has decided to partner with them.

Then you have Blu-ray, a more forward-looking format, one that takes into consideration the needs of future HD media with more space, higher bit rates, and discs at the SAME PRICE that offer special scratch resistance to protect media. In my opinion, the Blu-ray spec doesn't go to far, it brings to HD what is needed.

You wouldn't be the first to agree with someone who is incorrect. I too thought HD DVD was a "Vanilla" format at first until I dug into the spec and saw how cool it really is. They have 46GB Triple Layer discs waiting should the need for more space really rear its head. As far as cutting corners I haven't seen it as every HD DVD player has a higher subset of mandatory features. If anyone has cut corners its players like the Sammy with no ethernet and no USB ports and inferior audio support. Sorry.

You guys keep hammering and yammering about the future. What is so future proof about Blu-Ray? I have over 50 DVDs and not one is scratched beyond playability. looking at the current codecs like VC-1 and AVC explain to me why I need 50Mbps. I keep getting the distinct sense that many of you simply "want" features yet you don't really understand what these features offer. You just want it because it's a bigger number. And you're trying to sell me, a person who understands this stuff a bit better than the average person, on the future requiring these features. Give me data...tell me why I need protection on the discs, tell me why I need higher bitrates. Because right now I'm not perceiving a weakness in these areas in either of the formats.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

You guys keep hammering and yammering about the future. What is so future proof about Blu-Ray? I have over 50 DVDs and not one is scratched beyond playability. looking at the current codecs like VC-1 and AVC explain to me why I need 50Mbps. I keep getting the distinct sense that many of you simply "want" features yet you don't really understand what these features offer. You just want it because it's a bigger number. And you're trying to sell me, a person who understands this stuff a bit better than the average person, on the future requiring these features. Give me data...tell me why I need protection on the discs, tell me why I need higher bitrates. Because right now I'm not perceiving a weakness in these areas in either of the formats.

I'm not trying to flame you but,

I think your sig is B.S. (just had to call that out)

How could you support both formats, when you continually say there is no need for the things that make Blu Ray a considerable adversary to HDDVD.

is this just a scapegoat if things don't pan out for you?

"Dude, I supported both from the beginning"

RRRRRrrrriiiiiGGGHhhhhTTT!!!!! I'm not buying it.

Myself, Marzetta & Provenflipper are pretty much the only Loyalists to Blu Ray on this forum, everyone else is like a house of cards, they fall over as soon as the pressure is uneven, instead of holding on.

You can discount storage space, Bit rates and try and create a "need" for DTS Master audio etc, but the proof is, the only format that needs that is HDDVD because they lack the space for LPCM & High bit rate mpeg2 which despite popular belief is better than VC-1. Yes, there is a point where the improvement of high bit rate mpeg2 is pointless (un-noticeable), but If you have the space...why the heck not?

We can yadah yadah yadah about specs all day...

My philosophy in all of this is, I like the CE manufacturers behind Blu Ray better, hell alot better...and they have every studio but one that HDDVD has, & then some so while you guys call it a waste of $500 extra, I consider it that i'm saving myself $500 extra by buying into something that in my eyes may or may not be around in a year and if it is, will just be the same thing I already have with less support and less spec ability.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by Brian@BBY

Myself, Marzetta & Provenflipper are pretty much the only Loyalists to Blu Ray on this forum, everyone else is like a house of cards, they fall over as soon as the pressure is uneven, instead of holding on.

On c'mon, you guys refuse to see the light. Those of us who have changed preferences in the format war have simply woken up to reality. At this time HD DVD is better than BD. Will that change eventually? Perhaps but exactly how long would you have liked us to wait? What if the improvements many of you see happening this fall don't happen? What if it takes till next summer for dual layer discs to be common on prerecorded BDs? Sure that's a lot of "if's" but they are all very possible.

You can discount storage space, Bit rates and try and create a "need" for DTS Master audio etc, but the proof is, the only format that needs that is HDDVD because they lack the space for LPCM & High bit rate mpeg2 which despite popular belief is better than VC-1. Yes, there is a point where the improvement of high bit rate mpeg2 is pointless (un-noticeable), but If you have the space...why the heck not?

Imagine if you will what a BD could hold if it were using a newer codec. Disney wants to have a lot of interactivity features on their BDs, how much space will be left after the movie in MPEG2 takes up a lot of room?

My philosophy in all of this is, I like the CE manufacturers behind Blu Ray better, hell alot better...and they have every studio but one that HDDVD has, & then some...

I like the support better too.

...so while you guys call it a waste of $500 extra, I consider it that i'm saving myself $500 extra by buying into something that in my eyes may or may not be around in a year and if it is, will just be the same thing I already have with less support and less spec ability.

I consider it a waste of $1000. I refuse to buy a player based on unfullfilled promises. When the BDA starts putting it's money where it's mouth is I'll take note... not before.

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by nyg

On c'mon, you guys refuse to see the light. Those of us who have changed preferences in the format war have simply woken up to reality. At this time HD DVD is better than BD. Will that change eventually? Perhaps but exactly how long would you have liked us to wait? What if the improvements many of you see happening this fall don't happen? What if it takes till next summer for dual layer discs to be common on prerecorded BDs? Sure that's a lot of "if's" but they are all very possible.

Everyone has differen't lifestyles, some of us can afford to blow $500 here or there, some of us can only do something like this once or twice a year. I can not afford to just jump onto something because it fills a need, NOW...quite frankly, I am more inclined to think that Blu Ray more or less meets HDDVD in more ways than not, and with the promise of it being even better than HDDVD. I know some of you say "well i don't believe sony etc" well, Sony has always lived up to the hype for me, so I will be putting my faith in that camp. Like I said, I'd be super peeved if I buy into HDDVD, and then a few months later everything is out on Blu Ray.

Imagine if you will what a BD could hold if it were using a newer codec. Disney wants to have a lot of interactivity features on their BDs, how much space will be left after the movie in MPEG2 takes up a lot of room?

Exactly, so with BD there is choice...with HDDVD you are relying on 30gb's that limit how much interactivity you could have in the future.

I consider it a waste of $1000. I refuse to buy a player based on unfullfilled promises. When the BDA starts putting it's money where it's mouth is I'll take note... not before.

Do as you do, I'll do as I do. IMO The Tosh just doesn't meet my lifestyle needs...this could change, but right now...nope!