Value Electronics 2015 Flat Panel Shootout at CE Week

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I did not realize that the Sammy was $2K more than the Sony. No, I definitely don't think it was worth $2K more. If he has to have a new set now, I'd go with the Sony, although...

Then the Sony it is. That’s what I wanted to know.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

But he should realize that in six months, that Sony will probably be several $thousand cheaper.

Can’t be helped, he’s a Tour de France nut….plus, the optical block on his current (old) set is failing quickly and miserably (now with very yellow facial tones, which is impossible to tweak out….even someone with bilateral cataracts would struggle to be happy with at this point).

[Robert Zohn]

4K content from Netflix, M-Go and Amazon instant video was difficult to get them to start on the same frame. We even tried with Sony's FMPX-10 4K server, but it would not pass correctly through our 4K distribution switch.

We just set-up our Scarsdale, NY Showroom with the TVs that were in the Shootout and I always add new high-end models as they come to market so we can all continue to see how the current best TVs compare to the late arrivals. I don't plan on another Shootout for 2015, but we will discuss the new entries and how they perform against each other.

I had a blast hosting the 5 TV Shootouts we performed with Scott Wilkinson, Rob Sabin, my two daughters, Lianne and Katelyn, and all of the great guests who made this year's TV Shootout bigger and better! Thanks to all who attended in person and watched online.

BTW, we left the raw unedited 5 sessions on the LiveStream TV Shootout page and AVS just posted their recorded raw recording on YouTube.

-Robert

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

4K content from Netflix, M-Go and Amazon instant video was difficult to get them to start on the same frame. We even tried with Sony's FMPX-10 4K server, but it would not pass correctly through our 4K distribution switch.

We just set-up our Scarsdale, NY Showroom with the TVs that were in the Shootout and I always add new high-end models as they come to market so we can all continue to see how the current best TVs compare to the late arrivals. I don't plan on another Shootout for 2015, but we will discuss the new entries and how they perform against each other.

I had a blast hosting the 5 TV Shootouts we performed with Scott Wilkinson and Rob Sabin and all of the great guests who made this year's TV Shootout bigger and better! Thanks to all who attended in person and watched online.

BTW, we left the raw unedited 5 sessions on the LiveStream TV Shootout page and AVS just posted their recorded raw recording on YouTube.

-Robert

Would have been better if you had positioned the camera used for the live stream in the center like the raw feed AVS Youtube video. The blue glow in the center (between the Sony and the Samsung ) was distracting. anyone mention that during the 5 sessions? Can't tell if it is coming from some equipment (players?) or something behind the black drape.

Can you get Tim Alessi to expand on what LG is doing to address the dark side issue on the LG?

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

With the rapid growth in streaming and digital downloads, I'm surprised that UHD internet delivered content (Netflix, Ultraflix, Amazon, M-go) is not used for some element of the evaluation. Perhaps in the future.

I'd love to see that. It would be really interesting to switch between a Netflix 4K movie and a BD and see if anyone can tell the difference.

I also think all of the tests should be done blind - we shouldn't know what set we're looking at, but unfortunately, the UIs on the sets are a dead giveaway even if the brand was covered up or removed on the set itself.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Would have been better if you had positioned the camera used for the live stream in the center like the raw feed AVS Youtube video. The blue glow in the center (between the Sony and the Samsung ) was distracting. anyone mention that during the 5 sessions? Can't tell if it is coming from some equipment (players?) or something behind the black drape.

Frankly, I think it's a moot point because there is no way you can evaluate the picture quality of a TV by watching an online presentation.

Due to the nature of video cameras, the blue glow was probably far more distracting online than in-person.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I also think all of the tests should be done blind - we shouldn't know what set we're looking at, but unfortunately, the UIs on the sets are a dead giveaway even if the brand was covered up or removed on the set itself.

Brand bias would have been an issue several years ago, with Sony in particular. Today, not so much. Since no one is claiming statistical relevance of the shootout results, it is good as is.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Frankly, I think it's a moot point because there is no way you can evaluate the picture quality of a TV by watching an online presentation.

Due to the nature of video cameras, the blue glow was probably far more distracting online than in-person.

The camera position off to the left of the aisle was poor since there was a lot of traffic and several people were hanging out in front of the camera for extended periods. Very annoying.

[raygendreau]

4K video clip showing the 4 displays playing 4K video:

2015 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Raw Clip - Intro with UHD/4K Demo Footage - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Did any of you see the Kane HDR demo on the Samsung? If yes, your comments?

After somebody from Canada posted the link on this forum to the interview with Joe back in Oct. 2013, I took issue with his rather dismissive attitude toward Dolby because he portrayed Dolby Vision to listeners as being solely about Highlights….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtL8...u.be&t=1h1m45s

That was simply wrong and a rather unfair characterization because Dolby, not Joe, has been one of the defacto leaders in HDR research and development [at least since ’07 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrightSide_Technologies ]).

Before the time of that interview in October 2013, apparently unbeknownst to Joe (and Scott), but posted here (in the Tech forum of Blu-ray.com), it was discussed that Dolby had already explicitly stated and showed data from testing with independent observers that it’s a factor of going darker as well as brighter because it’s the full range that totally immerses the audience.

For example, one of Dolby’s charts to make that very point…



Also, for further reading to those having interest, I posted these links to papers/presentations/talks expressing as such
https://talks.stanford.edu/scott-daly-timo-kunkel/ 2012

Preference limits of the visual dynamic range for ultra high quality and Aesthetic Conveyance, S. Daly, T.Kunkel, X.Sun, S. Farrell and P. Crum (2013) SPIE Electronic Imaging, HVEI, Burlingame, CA, Feb 2013

Viewer Preferences for Shadow, Diffuse, Specular and Emissive Luminance Limits of High Dynamic Range Displays, S. Daly, T. Kunkel, X. Sun, S. Farrell, and P. Crum (2013) SID Display Week May 2013, paper 41.1, Vancouver, Canada.

Demographics of viewer preference for the luminance limits of Displayed Dynamic range imagery, S. Farrell, S. Daly, T. Kunkel, and P. Griffis (2013) SMPTE Australia, July.

I’m hoping that the HDR demo/discussion at the recent shootout event was more accurate and cutting edge than the “geeky” information provided in that past podcast….where there was also some lack of knowledge regarding the development of HEVC at the time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I had a blast hosting the 5 TV Shootouts we performed...

My neighbor would purchase the Sony 4K/UHD set from you if he lived in the Scarsdale area and didn’t need it so quickly.

[raygendreau]

Did anyone attend the panel discussion on HDR at CE? (Someone forgot to dress up for the occasion) Kane is on it. I believe he and Kisor are working with the UHD Alliance on the HDR portion of the UHD standard.

http://hdguru.com/panel-consider-iss...ng/#more-16161

Also, from a 2015 interview after CES: Go to 45 minutes for Kane's position on HDR and Gamma:

Home Theater Geeks 241: Joe Kane on Ultra HD - YouTube

[raygendreau]

Re the shootout ballot question Which TV do you think is best and why:

72 valid ballots from non-experts, 33 picked the LG , while 16 picked the Sony, 15 the Samsung, and one the Panasonic. Reasons for picking the LG were black level, perceived contrast and off axis performance.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Though, I’d like to hear Joe’s reference to the separate research that evaluates the assertion of increased benefit of WCG vs. 4K spatial resolution. Not saying it’s wrong, on the contrary, I tend to agree esp. with the right content and combined with HDR since any moron knows that color is distance independent but, it’s just that I would like to see the specific research or details thereof, as I don’t know what study he’s referring to because it’s a difficult thing to scientifically test for…..comparing those two parameters head-to-head.

I wrote in my post that this separate research wasn't discussed. Joe didn't mention it. I was actually referring to research presented by Mark Schubin that was presented at a SMPTE meeting.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Also, from a 2015 interview after CES: Go to 45 minutes for Kane's position on HDR and Gamma:...

As far as I'm concerned, Joe’s ‘position on HDR’ is rather undermined in the original YouTube which I linked demonstrating his knowledge (or lack thereof) of Dolby Vision.

As to his ‘position on gamma’, is it his? or that of Gary Demos, originally ? For I recall in attending the annual SMPTE 2014 Annual Technical Conference & Exhibition several months before that podcast, Gary advocating the use linear light (gamma 1.0).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

http://hdguru.com/panel-consider-iss...ng/#more-16161

Regarding ambient light, readers have already (months ago) been informed of thee significance of issue without having to travel to New York City. Search word ‘ambient’ –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post10253680

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post10250389

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...nt#post9596655

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I wrote in my post that this separate research wasn't discussed. Joe didn't mention it. I was actually referring to research presented by Mark Schubin that was presented at a SMPTE meeting.

I see. As to Mark, I’m saddened but not surprised by his continual emphasis to degrading of the value of 4K spatial resolution, for he’s always been defiant with regards to understanding and accepting the BIG picture as to how consumer electronics companies function - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post10716680

Which is an easy, holier-than-thou position to take when you don’t sell TVs for a living like the C.E. companies do who are struggling given competition from other forms of entertainment. I wonder if Mark has several children, if he grades each of them according to their value rather than seeing a little good in all of them.

b.t.w., my neighbor thanks you for your input on the Sony vs. Samsung value choice from Robert’s shootout and is going to pull the trigger at http://www.videoandaudiocenter.com/ , which I’m told by him that although apparently not listed on their website, they have some SonyXBR-75X940C in stock, NIB.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My neighbor would purchase the Sony 4K/UHD set from you if he lived in the Scarsdale area and didn’t need it so quickly.

Thanks. BTW, we ship from 5 Nationwide fulfillment warehouses across America. Mira Loma, CA would be our closest distribution facility to you.

-Robert

[JimShaw]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks. BTW, we ship from 5 Nationwide fulfillment warehouses across America. Mira Loma, CA would be our closest distribution facility to you.

-Robert

Robert

Mira Loma is right down the freeway from where I live.

If I didn't want you to calibrate, I could order from you and almost have the set next day

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Would have been better if you had positioned the camera used for the live stream in the center like the raw feed AVS Youtube video. The blue glow in the center (between the Sony and the Samsung ) was distracting. anyone mention that during the 5 sessions? Can't tell if it is coming from some equipment (players?) or something behind the black drape.

Can you get Tim Alessi to expand on what LG is doing to address the dark side issue on the LG?

We wanted to have our video camera in the center, but it was unattended and in that position people were bumping into the tripod so we moved it to the side by a column to be protected and out of the way of the crowds.

Mark Henninger of AVS Forum put his camcorder in our original centered position and stayed with the camera while recording the event.

I speak with Tim frequently and I'll report back with any information. We're also working on solutions. Also please understand that the dark edges show up best on a solid low APL (Average Picture Luminance Level) full field gray pattern and it rarely appears on content. To see the dark edges on normal video content the image must have a low APL across the entire scene. The dark edges are not an issue with most content.

We exploited the issue by putting up a full field low APL solid grey pattern. Scott had mentioned this every time he demonstrated the test pattern.

-Robert

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by JimShaw

Robert

Mira Loma is right down the freeway from where I live.

If I didn't want you to calibrate, I could order from you and almost have the set next day

Correct, as usual Jim. However, it is dependent on availability, sometimes Southern CA orders ship from NV or WA to fulfill every order ASAP and not wait for the next allocation in the closest warehouse.

-Robert

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks. BTW, we ship from 5 Nationwide fulfillment warehouses across America. Mira Loma, CA would be our closest distribution facility to you.

-Robert

Thanks for the gesture Robert but he’s already made a verbal agreement with one of the managers there at V&A…..and, believe it or not, some mortgage bankers (which he is) do keep their word. I’ll keep your offer in mind the next time I’m in the market. Ray (in Irvine) might be interested in due course also.