Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Is the main SW thread locked?(again)
Here I thought this was a thread about Episode VII?

It is.. feel free to contribute something about Ep VII

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I apply the same point of view to so many scenes and story arcs in Episodes 4-6, as simplistic as they are.

So do I. There's plenty of boring, repetitive, silly nonsense in the OT.

Fortunately it's all in Jedi. It would be better if there was no boring crap at all but whattayagonnado.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

I did yes but his actions that preceded this point meant I couldn't get invested. Not because they were horrific but because they were so unbelievable in the context of the story at that point. His actual turn was far too quick and he went from conflicted Jedi to child murderer in the space of about 5 minutes. Had he killed the younglings at the end perhaps after all he had been through, I "may" have been able to accept it as more believable.

Murderering the children was Lucas' way of illustrating Anakin's desperation. Palpatine had driven him so far into darkness, that a moment had to arrive where, through his own power, there was no way for Anakin to re-embrace the light.

Its the same issue I have with Padme in Clones - her acceptance of Anakin killing the Sandpeople is just too unbelievable given the context of her character. It makes it impossible to connect with her.

You do see the horror in her eyes when he mentions slaughtering the women and children in the Tusken camp, but she also sees the shame and regret he feels. Its almost like she's asking herself, "What would I do if someone beat my mother to the point of death?"

I will be attending a tribute concert to Williams at the Royal Albert Hall in London in October and can't wait.

Oh, you suck...

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Context again, if you are going to sell that moment, you need something from the character to make it believable. There was nothing to suggest up to that point that Padme was incapable of living without Anakin, just that she was in love with him.

When you truly love someone completely, losing them becomes your worst nightmare. If you're able to think rationally about such an outcome without your emotions getting involved, your connection with that person isn't very deep. That kind of bond is only formed through shared vulnerability, which is what Anakin and Padme had.

Having Anakin's twins too (who she had shown concern for earlier when she heard she might die in childbirth so she hadn't lost everything she cared for) added to the belief she had something to live for and she even had time to express her belief there was some good in him - in other words hope wasn't lost.

Hope wasn't lost for Anakin, but that didn't mean Padme had any left for herself. She wanted her husband to be saved, but she'd already turned her back on him at Mustafar, due to his horrors. She loved him wholly, but everyone has things in life they will not tolerate.

And the ridiculous thing is it wasn't even needed. From what I have read Lucas put it in there because he didn't want people thinking Anakin had been the one to actually be responsible. Err why ??

I agree it wasn't needed, but I think Lucas included it because he wanted to preserve the idea of Anakin's redemption being possible. In his mind, someone who murders their own spouse in cold blood is probably doomed for good...and he didn't want that for Anakin. He wrote that scene in such a way that his anger's mainly directed toward Obi-Wan more than his wife; seeing the elder Jedi on the ramp sent him into a brief rage, and he lost control.

[simonynwa]

1. Murdering the children in Ep III was not an act of desperation - stopping Mace Windu was perhaps. Palpatine hadn't driven him very far into darkness at this point other than stopping a Jedi from committing a potentially dubious execution, though when he had finally being given the suit and learned of Padme's death, then perhaps there is no way back for him.

2. Again admitting to murdering woman and children would probably make you question whether you might marry this guy. Don't think Padme would do this regardless of what happened to her (interesting deleted scenes showing her past helping out refugees/humanitarian work etc)

3. Sorry but Padme's character and actions up to the end of Sith do not make her losing the will to live believable whether it happens to others or not. You are describing motivations, feelings and connections to justify a throwaway line that is not explained, rationalised or true to the character we are presented with.

And by the time Anakin got to the point of murdering his wife, he already murdered a load of kids so Id say the preservation of the idea of redemption for him within the film is already gone at this point, hence why I said it simply wasn't needed.

And this is where the prequels ultimately fall down for me - at each of several key moments, Lucas makes fatal mistakes with the characters and their believability - Anakin/Padme falling in love, Padme's reaction to the Sandpeople, Dooku's death, Anakin's pledge to Palpatine and destruction of the Temple, Anakin's face off with Padme, Padme's death - all have really character and story problems that feel like a first draft. They are all such sudden shifts in character too which doesn't help

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I have no problem with the logic behind her death. She had nearly been force-choked to death by her husband who had just murdered dozens of people, including children. The combination of losing everything she cared for and the physical injuries Anakin inflicted on her seemed enough for her to lose the will to go on.

No way im buying that. She would have stuck around for her kids. The whole PT was a mess ...there are no two ways about it. They were lousy not well thought out scripts which further enhanced Epic Failure because of lousy acting.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Elvis

No way im buying that. She would have stuck around for her kids. The whole PT was a mess ...there are no two ways about it. They were lousy not well thought out scripts which further enhanced Epic Failure because of lousy acting.

[MCT]

Originally Posted by Elvis

No way im buying that. She would have stuck around for her kids. The whole PT was a mess ...there are no two ways about it. They were lousy not well thought out scripts which further enhanced Epic Failure because of lousy acting.

Its the most ridiculous death Lucas could have thought of. If this movie were named Galaxy Fights, nobody would be defending such bullshit. You slap Star Wars across it though, all sins are forgiven and mental gymnastics become the norm.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by MCT

Its the most ridiculous death Lucas could have thought of. If this movie were named Galaxy Fights, nobody would be defending such bullshit. You slap Star Wars across it though, all sins are forgiven and mental gymnastics become the norm.

No, there's many more ridiculous things which could've been done. At worst, its due to something Lucas already admitted: spending too much time on the political side with Episodes I & II, before focusing on Anakin's fall for Episode III. That's why I think he should've written one big prequel script in 1994, similar to his first draft of the OT, and elaborated it as necessary during production. Instead, he wrote all of them separately, which resulted in significant story gaps. Some were patched in the EU books or screenplay novels, but not all of them.

I don't think Lucas is a bad filmmaker at all, but I do think his overall impatience with the acting process blew up in his face the second time around.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

No, there's many more ridiculous things which could've been done.

That's true. He could have gone with something like this...

[Show spoiler]

oj naked gun - YouTube

[tilallr1]

Originally Posted by Elvis

No way im buying that. She would have stuck around for her kids. The whole PT was a mess ...there are no two ways about it. They were lousy not well thought out scripts which further enhanced Epic Failure because of lousy acting.

Exactly! There isn't a single woman with children or pregnant who would not die for her Children. Anyone who says otherwise clearly doesn't know what they are taking about. Also the Droid did say there was nothing medically wrong with her meaning the throat crush caused no damage at all. It is probably one of the dumbest and pointless death scenes I have ever seen on film.

[Ray Jackson]

This thread is like nerd Heaven!!!!

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

Exactly! There isn't a single woman with children or pregnant who would not die for her Children. Anyone who says otherwise clearly doesn't know what they are taking about.

"Cheers to that!"

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

Exactly! There isn't a single woman with children or pregnant who would not die for her Children. Anyone who says otherwise clearly doesn't know what they are taking about. Also the Droid did say there was nothing medically wrong with her meaning the throat crush caused no damage at all. It is probably one of the dumbest and pointless death scenes I have ever seen on film.

Sadly, some women do abandon their own children, and worse. However, Padme's death never seemed that way to me. I accepted it on two levels: a combination of Vader's actions and her own broken heart, plus Lucas trying to explain why neither child grew up with her. It would've been seen as far worse by some folks, for Padme to just allow Bail and Owen to raise her kids while she moved on with her life. The whole thing was just one big "rock vs. hard place" situation.

[JavaJulien]

Originally Posted by tilallr1

Exactly! There isn't a single woman with children or pregnant who would not die for her Children. Anyone who says otherwise clearly doesn't know what they are taking about. Also the Droid did say there was nothing medically wrong with her meaning the throat crush caused no damage at all. It is probably one of the dumbest and pointless death scenes I have ever seen on film.

My Biological Maternal-Grandmother abandoned her kids so it's never a complete unfortunately. And plus, there is this thing called Postpartum Depression.

Not defending the shotty writing of Revenge of the Sith, i'm just saying.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Sadly, some women do abandon their own children, and worse. However, Padme's death never seemed that way to me. I accepted it on two levels: a combination of Vader's actions and her own broken heart, plus Lucas trying to explain why neither child grew up with her. It would've been seen as far worse by some folks, for Padme to just allow Bail and Owen to raise her kids while she moved on with her life. The whole thing was just one big "rock vs. hard place" situation.

He didn't find himself between a rock and a hard place. He painted himself into a corner. There's a difference.

And he could have written himself out it relatively easily.

Kids are born, mom and kids are both fine.

Cut to Palpatine concentrating madly, perhaps making an arcane force gesture or two.

Cue beeping medical monitors - medical droid: her stats are dropping!

Cut to Palpatine chuckling

Medical Droid - she's physically fine, we can't find anything wrong with her

Cut to Palpatine twirling his moustache and cackling madly.

Carry on the scene.

They probably could have used a few shots from deleted scenes, redubbed some of the droid dialogue and done the whole thing in editing.

Hell, a fan editor could probably fix it.

[tilallr1]

Originally Posted by JavaJulien

My Biological Maternal-Grandmother abandoned her kids so it's never a complete unfortunately. And plus, there is this thing called Postpartum Depression.

Not defending the shotty writing of Revenge of the Sith, i'm just saying.

True I shouldn't say all women, just MOST and Padme's character up to that point did not seem like someone who would give up the will to live, being the fighter she was and how much she seemed to be excited about her kids, going back to Naboo to raise them. It was completely illogical. Heart broken deaths just don't happen in the real world, unless there are other factors, such as old age, disease, or body damage. None of which were a factor in this case. Just saying.

[tilallr1]

Originally Posted by octagon

He didn't find himself between a rock and a hard place. He painted himself into a corner. There's a difference.

And he could have written himself out it relatively easily.

Kids are born, mom and kids are both fine.

Cut to Palpatine concentrating madly, perhaps making an arcane force gesture or two.

Cue beeping medical monitors - medical droid: her stats are dropping!

Cut to Palpatine chuckling

Medical Droid - she's physically fine, we can't find anything wrong with her

Cut to Palpatine twirling his moustache and cackling madly.

Carry on the scene.

They probably could have used a few shots from deleted scenes, redubbed some of the droid dialogue and done the whole thing in editing.

Hell, a fan editor could probably fix it.

Now that !!! That would have been acceptable ... and awesome at the same time. I will choose to go with that explanation until a better one presents itself.

[StingingVelvet]

Padme "just giving up on life" was retarded. I don't care what anyone says. One of many silly, stupid things in the prequel scripts.

[Moviefan2k4]

As horrifying as Palpatine killing Padme would've been, it wouldn't have broken Anakin's spirit like believing he was responsible himself did. Besides, Palpatine's not the type to get his own hands dirty unless absolutely necessary, like when Mace showed up to arrest him or Luke refused to kill Vader.

Lucas was basically stuck with this problem in 1983 though, by having Leia say she actually remembered her mother. It still surprises me that he either ignored or forgot about that when making Episode III.

[Himmel]

You guys think that's the least of your worries.
Rumor has it that

[Show spoiler]The Sith Inquisitors have taken Anakin's Dna and infused it to their Master . So his voice will also be that of Anakin. Hayden Christensen has been seen at the studios California voicing his lines for the villain.