T2 ROTF Audio Poll

[Jeff Kleist]

The top is the Constant Height version, bottom is IMAX.
I guess Paramount didn't want to scare the Walmart specific crowd...which is entirely feasible.

You're talking 1kbps, which is essentially nothing. It works out to a 0.00021% difference
In lossless audio it's the resolution that matters, and they're identical.

[MikeDaWiz]

Originally Posted by JunkBoy

Wal Mart TF2. PCM from PS3 to Pioneer Elite SC-07 via HDMI. Watched it with the receiver set to Dolby Pro Logic IIx to get 7.1 and THX on top of the DTS lossless track. Started the movie at my normal listening movie volume of -17 but found it lacking. The punch was there but not the DTS HD-MA punch that I'm used to hearing. Took it to -12 and although it sounded better it wasn't satisfactory imo. Finally went down to -8 and that's when I felt satisfied. The punch was there, the dialogue was there, the DTS-HD MA that I'm used to experiencing was finally there! Big difference for me and my system but I did get satisfactory sound with a hefty adjustment. I did switch to direct source on my SC-07 in between volume adjustments just to see if there was a difference between my 7.1 setup and the 5.1 setup but they both sound the same IMO. Regardless, this movie was a fun ride! Just turn up the volume!

Also, that Imax Forrest scene was an absolute jaw dropper! You talk about WOW factor...that's it right there!

Totally agree with you there! I am runnning a PS3 through HDMI, PCM
to a Sony STR-DG720 receiver. The dialog was a bit low but that did not stop me from turning it up a little. I honestly to see the problem with turning up a few notches!

[somchair1]

mine sounds fine...just turn up the volume a bit and you will be fine....this is quite possibly the loudest blu ray I have ever watched...had to turn it down a couple of time because it shook the entire house...

[somchair1]

Originally Posted by MikeDaWiz

Totally agree with you there! I am runnning a PS3 through HDMI, PCM
to a Sony STR-DG720 receiver. The dialog was a bit low but that did not stop me from turning it up a little. I honestly to see the problem with turning up a few notches!

i'm running the exact same specs. what speakers do you have? I have a Klipsch center channel and sub. I only have two front speakers which (don't laugh because they sound okay for their price) two klh 12 in speakers. hopefully i can upgrade those front speakers to towers soon but I need two rear speakers first.

[MikeDaWiz]

Originally Posted by somchair1

i'm running the exact same specs. what speakers do you have? I have a Klipsch center channel and sub. I only have two front speakers which (don't laugh because they sound okay for their price) two klh 12 in speakers. hopefully i can upgrade those front speakers to towers soon but I need two rear speakers first.

I cant laugh because i dont know what klh is. I only know the names of a few brands now. I am using the klipsch quintet IIIs. Look at my gallery and you will see the center and the two speakers/surrounds. there are four of those speakers.

[Dave_6]

If you have the IMAX version, just turn it up 4 to 5 db's over your normal setting! That's all you have to do; it's just dialnorm! There isn't anything 'wrong' with the audio on the IMAX version!

[MikeDaWiz]

Originally Posted by Dave_6

If you have the IMAX version, just turn it up 4 to 5 db's over your normal setting! That's all you have to do; it's just dialnorm! There isn't anything 'wrong' with the audio on the IMAX version!

I agree entirely!

[HumanMedia]

Originally Posted by cembros

the bitrate is an average bitrate, the imax version is 1 min longer and therefore the average bitrate is slightly higher

Erm, but since it an AVERAGE bitrate the total time will make no difference to the bitrate, only the total data size.

[Captain Useless]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

No it's not a placebo effect. I have my system dialed in, and I'm very familiar with how it sounds on action movies, especially the first Transformers.

To me, this movie sounds great. BUT, there are certain parts of the mix where it feels weak. Like, during the Shanghai chase scene, a GIANT robot is involved in the action sequences, yet there's very little bass or even power to those scenes. There are several parts like that during the movie (I noticed this in the IMAX theater in July as well).

So maybe they rushed this movie or something, but the mix is pretty weak in spots. And the dialogue does get more quiet in a few spots, but I didn't really notice it since I had the movie playing loud anyways.

Other than a few scenes, this movie looks and sounds amazing.

This is exactly how I felt about the mix as well. And it is not the "placebo" effect, or all in our heads. I came to this site after watching the movie to see if anyone else had noticed what I did. I had no prior knowledge of any supposed issues, I just noticed something was off about the audio. Overall, the sound is fantastic, but certain impacts lacked the punch or explosion they seemed to warrant.

[bfellow]

DN -4dB - most people noticed this on the IMAX version.

[HDPlasma]

Originally Posted by ewsjr

oh, and this was just posted over at AVS:

It's just dialnorm, there shouldn't be any technical issues with it. Xylon posted scans of both.

The IMAX version has a higher bitrate.

The top is the Constant Height version, bottom is IMAX.
I guess Paramount didn't want to scare the Walmart specific crowd...which is entirely feasible.
__________________

This brings up another item.

Let's say the peak audio(explosions/LFE) is +8db.
So on the standard version, dialog is at 0db and -4db on the Imax.

So no matter if you increase the volume, the standard version dialog is always only 8 db lower whereas the Imax is always -12db lower.

Unless you can just adjust the dialog, there's no way to match peak and dialog of the standard version on the Imax version. The Imax version will always have a larger peak to dialog separation than the standard version.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by HumanMedia

Erm, but since it an AVERAGE bitrate the total time will make no difference to the bitrate, only the total data size.

there is more data though

[Jeff Kleist]

So no matter if you increase the volume, the standard version dialog is always only 8 db lower whereas the Imax is always -12db lower.

Unless you can just adjust the dialog, there's no way to match peak and dialog of the standard version on the Imax version. The Imax version will always have a larger peak to dialog separation than the standard version.

Dialnorm affects the entire soundtrack, it's not just dialog. It's called that because it establishes the decible zone where speech falls.

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by HDPlasma

This brings up another item.

Let's say the peak audio(explosions/LFE) is +8db.
So on the standard version, dialog is at 0db and -4db on the Imax.

So no matter if you increase the volume, the standard version dialog is always only 8 db lower whereas the Imax is always -12db lower.

Unless you can just adjust the dialog, there's no way to match peak and dialog of the standard version on the Imax version. The Imax version will always have a larger peak to dialog separation than the standard version.

As was pointed out above, dialnorm impacts the entire FR, not just the dialog. It is a 100% uniform decrease in overall volume, so you just turn it up 4db to compensate.

Having said that, I still dont have peace of mind that the 2 mixes are the exact same. A dif mix was used for the IMAX version in the theater and it is entirely possible that the IMAX and standard version are 2 dif mixes. I hope we have proof one way or the other on this soon. They are probably the same mix, but I want to know for sure!

Originally Posted by Dave_6

If you have the IMAX version, just turn it up 4 to 5 db's over your normal setting! That's all you have to do; it's just dialnorm! There isn't anything 'wrong' with the audio on the IMAX version!

Until we have some concrete proof (such as some waterfalls of the 2 mixes) I am personaly not entirely convinced yet. They are probably the same track, but I want more peace of mind then that.

[Jeff Kleist]

Having said that, I still dont have peace of mind that the 2 mixes are the exact same. A dif mix was used for the IMAX version in the theater and it is entirely possible that the IMAX and standard version are 2 dif mixes. I hope we have proof one way or the other on this soon. They are probably the same mix, but I want to know for sure!

There was no seperate mix made for the IMAX version unless IMAX altered it themselves after it left Paramount's hands. Confirmed that yesterday. The IMAX scenes were simply added in.

.

[SumSuperman]

Originally Posted by tbizzle

No it's not a placebo effect. I have my system dialed in, and I'm very familiar with how it sounds on action movies, especially the first Transformers.

To me, this movie sounds great. BUT, there are certain parts of the mix where it feels weak. Like, during the Shanghai chase scene, a GIANT robot is involved in the action sequences, yet there's very little bass or even power to those scenes. There are several parts like that during the movie (I noticed this in the IMAX theater in July as well).

So maybe they rushed this movie or something, but the mix is pretty weak in spots. And the dialogue does get more quiet in a few spots, but I didn't really notice it since I had the movie playing loud anyways.

Other than a few scenes, this movie looks and sounds amazing.

I'm not saying that there might not be something lacking with the mix. What I was saying is that I think people have been influenced to believe that the non-IMAX audio mix is different (better) than the IMAX version beyond just the volume difference.

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

There was no seperate mix made for the IMAX version unless IMAX altered it themselves after it left Paramount's hands. Confirmed that yesterday. The IMAX scenes were simply added in.

.

How is that possible since IMAX theaters dont use subwoofers (according to FilmMixer)? According to him, all the bass is mixed into the mains in the IMAX version for the commercial theater version.......Wouldnt you have to remix it to get a discrete .1 channel for the constant AR version for the standard theaters? Please explain this to me.

[trinireb]

actually when u sit in the imax theatre b4 a movie starts there is an audio presentaion with lasers and show u all the speakes. it clearly has a sub right in the center of the screen where all the bass goes.

[Dr.Know]

Originally Posted by Todd Smith

How is that possible since IMAX theaters dont use subwoofers (according to FilmMixer)? According to him, all the bass is mixed into the mains in the IMAX version for the commercial theater version.......Wouldnt you have to remix it to get a discrete .1 channel for the constant AR version for the standard theaters? Please explain this to me.

I agree with you here. I think there is 3 things going on with the Imax version (purely speculation...no actual proof):

1) Imax version has an imax mix....therefore the bass is in the mains. Everyone needs to ensure they set their crossover properly to ensure that bass is redirected to your sub.

2) Dialnorm has been confirmed on the Imax version of -4db. You will need to compensate by increasing the volume 4db.

3) Is could be possible that the Imax version is also triggering Dynamic Range Compression ON be default on everyone's BD player (when bitstreaming especially), just like Iron Man does. You'd need to turn it off while the movie's playing....most people may not even know it has been triggered off because they have it set to off in their settings, but the BD it turning it on.

#3 could potentially be false, because if I recall correctly, DRC is a Dolby thing and not DTS.

I speculate with these 3 things because from the way it sounds, some people are experiencing just low volume (#2) and/or are experiencing a weak presence of sound (#1 or #3 could be responsible).

Just my $0.02

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by ewsjr

oh, and this was just posted over at AVS:

It's just dialnorm, there shouldn't be any technical issues with it. Xylon posted scans of both.
Quote:
Audio: English / DTS-HD Master Audio / 5.1 / 48 kHz / 4658 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Audio: English / DTS-HD Master Audio / 5.1 / 48 kHz / 4659 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit / DN -4dB)
The IMAX version has a higher bitrate.

The top is the Constant Height version, bottom is IMAX.
I guess Paramount didn't want to scare the Walmart specific crowd...which is entirely feasible.
__________________

Dialnorm is one thing. Now it's to find out from a reliable source if the actual PCM has been tampered with.
There could be two different soundtracks used for the two SKUs.

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

so what does this mean the Imax version is superior?

No. It's called Lossless for a reason.
In Lossless audio, the bitrate doesn't tell you anything about the quality. It's only purpose is to tell you roughly how well it was compressed (in terms of filesize per second). But there is zero loss in quality.

Originally Posted by Dr.Know

I agree with you here. I think there is 3 things going on with the Imax version (purely speculation...no actual proof):

1) Imax version has an imax mix....therefore the bass is in the mains. Everyone needs to ensure they set their crossover properly to ensure that bass is redirected to your sub.

You know, that is a very plausible reason too.
IMAX has a radically different audio set up than a conventional cinema. Good thinking there.

#3 could potentially be false, because if I recall correctly, DRC is a Dolby thing and not DTS.

There is also the possibility that DRC is accidentally applied to the actual project soundtrack *before* it was compressed to DTS.