SACDs

[Mahatma]

Originally Posted by bigshot

A couple of years ago, I bought a very good SACD player and bought a few SACDs to see if it offered an improvement. Some of the disks sounded different than the equivalent CD or even the CD hybrid layer. But careful listening led me to believe that they were differences in the mix, not the sound quality. I suspected that different masters were being used.

So I bought two copies of a beautifully engineered disk that was recorded DSD and was only available as an SACD hybrid. I lined them up side by side playing the two different layers and matched the levels. A friend of mine who is a sound engineer and I did a double blind test. There was absolutely no difference. Both layers sounded great.

The SACD player went in the closet and it's still there.

I have a few sacd-among them dark side of the moon,Beethovens 9th-and have similar experience.It is slightly better,but nowhere near the increase in fidelity when going to a class A amplifier.Listened to cd's on B&W's 800D with top notch HW,and THAT was impressive.Think maybe CD's is the pineacle of fidelity the human ear can hear.I won't go into the discussion about vinyl vs cd's since I have not enough experience with them.Think they are like apples and oranges kind of,they have distinct different sounds,and I like both.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by ManUtd

Don't know what to say, if I click on PanaPlasma's link it works.

I think I figured it out, I was just changing my password because of the Gizmodo/Gawker hack on the week-end and noticed in my profle that there is an option "Make my library public" which was not checked.

That has to explain it.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Mahatma

I have a few sacd-among them dark side of the moon,Beethovens 9th-and have similar experience.It is slightly better,but nowhere near the increase in fidelity when going to a class A amplifier.Listened to cd's on B&W's 800D with top notch HW,and THAT was impressive.Think maybe CD's is the pineacle of fidelity the human ear can hear.I won't go into the discussion about vinyl vs cd's since I have not enough experience with them.Think they are like apples and oranges kind of,they have distinct different sounds,and I like both.

Talk about apples and oranges, you're comparing CDs vs SACDs to upgrading amps!

[ls7z06]

We have about 150 SACD's, mostly classical and jazz with a few vintage rocks thrown in. Always thought SACD was the real deal. Discovered that quality equipment, especially the DAC and preamp, basically make all CD's sound like SACD, or better to my ear. Now, the only reason I will spend the extra money on a SACD is if I want the multichannel surround version.... and again, even that is not all that big of a deal to me vs a good quality standard CD set up.

[Mahatma]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Talk about apples and oranges, you're comparing CDs vs SACDs to upgrading amps!

Oh dear.Have listened to CD's on top-notch equipment and it doesn't compare to the upgra on my system.I have denon's pma 2000 with a very good CD player with JBL 260LE,and those don't compare to that equipment I listened to:Classe CD and amplifier and B&W 800d's.Those who are lucky enough to get top of the notch hardware,there is much more to gain going thr HW route than cd vs sacd.That is just my opinion.

[Mahatma]

Originally Posted by ls7z06

We have about 150 SACD's, mostly classical and jazz with a few vintage rocks thrown in. Always thought SACD was the real deal. Discovered that quality equipment, especially the DAC and preamp, basically make all CD's sound like SACD, or better to my ear. Now, the only reason I will spend the extra money on a SACD is if I want the multichannel surround version.... and again, even that is not all that big of a deal to me vs a good quality standard CD set up.

SACD will sound better I think,but HW upgrade makes abit more sense.Like I stated on earlier post:I think CD is the limit of human capabilities,but also consider that when one listen to vinyl it gives a different soundscape.

One can easily ruin oneself going down thew HW upgrade path

[Gremal]

Do you understand the concept of comparing optical formats vs comparing components/gear?

Buying a new cable or component--could be an amp, could be power cord, could be speakers--to optimize your system should make all your formats sound better. If it doesn't, you have made a less than optimal upgrade choice. You're trying to tell me that once SACDs sounded better than CDs in your system. Then you bought a new amp and it made CDs sound just like SACDs. Sorry, there is something in your system that is not allowing transparent reproduction. I'm all for optimizing and upsampling CD playback, but SACD is in a different eschelon.

[ls7z06]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Do you understand the concept of comparing optical formats vs comparing components/gear?

Buying a new cable or component--could be an amp, could be power cord, could be speakers--to optimize your system should make all your formats sound better. If it doesn't, you have made a less than optimal upgrade choice. You're trying to tell me that once SACDs sounded better than CDs in your system. Then you bought a new amp and it made CDs sound just like SACDs. Sorry, there is something in your system that is not allowing transparent reproduction. I'm all for optimizing and upsampling CD playback, but SACD is in a different eschelon.

You are correct providing the new component you are adding is compatible with all of the formats you want to compare. In some cases, a certain component may provide SQ improvement to one format, but may be incompatible with the second format. For instance...SACD cannot be digitally transferred to an external DAC due to data protection or copyright issues. Therefore you are left to compare the SQ of a redbook that can transfer digitally to a quality outboard DAC for conversion, to a SACD that must be converted with the originating player's DAC. Thus a true apples to apples comparison becomes impossible, or at least problematic. This is why I am now able to say that a standard CD of reasonable quality transferred digitally to my external DAC for conversion and then on to the preamp sounds just as good to my ear as a SACD that must be sent analog from the originating player directly to the preamp.

I agree with you that amplifiers should impact both formats equally.

(Looked at your gallery. Nice equipment by the way! Very well done.)

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by ls7z06

You are correct providing the new component you are adding is compatible with all of the formats you want to compare. In some cases, a certain component may provide SQ improvement to one format, but may be incompatible with the second format. For instance...SACD cannot be digitally transferred to an external DAC due to data protection or copyright issues. Therefore you are left to compare the SQ of a redbook that can transfer digitally to a quality outboard DAC for conversion, to a SACD that must be converted with the originating player's DAC. Thus a true apples to apples comparison becomes impossible, or at least problematic. This is why I am now able to say that a standard CD of reasonable quality transferred digitally to my external DAC for conversion and then on to the preamp sounds just as good to my ear as a SACD that must be sent analog from the originating player directly to the preamp.

Yes, I understand that some people might want to upgrade their system specifically for CD and not for other formats, but then they should not be making claims about relative merits of those formats. If I upgrade my disc machine and keep a crappy turntable/cartridge and then go around claiming that vinyl sucks, I would expect the audiophile community to call me an imbecile. Similarly someone who upgrades their DAC for CD and makes any claims about the relative merits of SACD should fully expect their observations to be challenged because they are not doing a meaningful comparison.

(Looked at your gallery. Nice equipment by the way! Very well done.)

Thanks, I enjoy it a lot!

[ColdBluSteelBook]

I am always on the lookout for The Offsprings "Conspiracy Of One"

I have searched high and low for this and have had 0% LUCK..

[Pondosinatra]

I just picked up this: http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POC...D-D6MK2-K.Kuro

and this: http://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/POC...X-A6MK2-K.Kuro

Sounds great. My only possible issue.....by definition, a stereo receiver just outputs to a left and right speaker. But I wonder if any SACD lovers who listen to 2 channel discs also output to a sub?

With this model amp it looks like there'd be no way for me to do that

[Gremal]

I only use my sub with multichannel SACDs. For two-channel content I don't use a sub. But my floorstander 802Ds go pretty low.

[ls7z06]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Yes, I understand that some people might want to upgrade their system specifically for CD and not for other formats, but then they should not be making claims about relative merits of those formats. If I upgrade my disc machine and keep a crappy turntable/cartridge and then go around claiming that vinyl sucks, I would expect the audiophile community to call me an imbecile. Similarly someone who upgrades their DAC for CD and makes any claims about the relative merits of SACD should fully expect their observations to be challenged because they are not doing a meaningful comparison.



Thanks, I enjoy it a lot!

I can't quite tell if we are agreeing or disagreeing here! HA! The only point I was making was that since I added a high quality stand alone DAC, which works on CD's but is incompatible for SACD, my CD's sound about the same as my SACD's. I am not saying anything sucks or anything like that. I am just saying my CD's now sound as good to me as SACD does (which sounds great too). That all makes me HAPPY! Now I can buy cheaper disks and still get great sound and my SQ in my old CD collection just got lots better. Sorry if I created a controversy by commenting on it. It was sure not my intent. Just me sharing what happened when I added the DAC. Cheers and hope you have a happy holiday!

[Pondosinatra]

Ok here's a question for the SACD gurus.....digital or analog? my player has both outputs. I think it sounds terrific using analog, but then I keep reading how DSD over HDMI is the best quality (not that my player can output that anyway).

I'm confused.

Update. I did some more digging....it looks like the digital out (toslink) is only for when playing regular CD's - which explains why when I picked that input on my receiver I didn't get any sound.

So unless your player has HDMI output all SACD sound must come through analog inputs.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Update. I did some more digging....it looks like the digital out (toslink) is only for when playing regular CD's - which explains why when I picked that input on my receiver I didn't get any sound.

So unless your player has HDMI output all SACD sound must come through analog inputs.

Correct, the content owners were paranoid about hi-rez files being passed via any digital connection other than HDMI due to lack of security.

[Pondosinatra]

I just grabbed one off of eBay listed as 'ultra-rare'. It seems a lot of them are advertised as such.

Is it just because compared to CD's that far fewer copies are mastered for SACD? Could you generalize that for all SACD releases?

[solarrdadd]

just the other day i picked up:

Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms

Hiromi - Beyond Standard

both are excellent multichannels SACD's. Hiromi really takes advantage of the multichannel and really fills the room. another nice thing about both is that they are hybrids so you can rip the CD layer to your portable player or either a pc or NAS for streaming to your HT gear for added value. both are recommended!

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

I just grabbed one off of eBay listed as 'ultra-rare'. It seems a lot of them are advertised as such.

Is it just because compared to CD's that far fewer copies are mastered for SACD? Could you generalize that for all SACD releases?

Almost all SACDs from the major music labels are out of print. The labels did one or two pressings at most for them and due to lack of sales at the time did not manufacture a lot for each SACD. So they are much rarer than the typical CD. DVD-Audios are in the same situation, but have come down in price since that format was digitally cracked to be downloaded off the Internet. The unbreakable encryption on SACD has prevented their prices from falling so far. Years ago you could walk into any Best Buy and get most any SACD for retail prices.

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Almost all SACDs from the major music labels are out of print. The labels did one or two pressings at most for them and due to lack of sales at the time did not manufacture a lot for each SACD. So they are much rarer than the typical CD. DVD-Audios are in the same situation, but have come down in price since that format was digitally cracked to be downloaded off the Internet. The unbreakable encryption on SACD has prevented their prices from falling so far. Years ago you could walk into any Best Buy and get most any SACD for retail prices.

Ya it sucks. As much as I'm a product of the 80's, it'd be nice to be able to listen to more contemporary artists that aren't in the jazz or classical genres.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Ya it sucks. As much as I'm a product of the 80's, it'd be nice to be able to listen to more contemporary artists that aren't in the jazz or classical genres.

jr.com has about 350 SACD releases in stock. Many of these are jazz, but there's lots of other as well. All at retail prices.

http://www.jr.com/category/music/n/4294856334/