Fox and DTS HD-MA

[PeterTHX]

Their is no such thing as a DTS-HD stream that includes any more than 1 of the above stream types. They simply aren't possible. If your player (that isn't compatible with DTS HD-MA) shows that it is "reading" a DTS-HD stream, that simply means that it recognizes the DTS-HD data format. All it is playing is the 1.5 Mpbs core track. A sure way to know that what you are playing isn't an HR track somehow pulled from an MA track (on a software player) is to look at the bitrate meter. DTS-HD HR tracks have to be CBR... so the bitrate meter cannot change. DTS-HD MA tracks, however, are all VBR by nature. If you're seeing a VBR bitrate displayed, you're simply viewing the full bitrate of the DTS-HD MA track. The other telltale sign that this isn't possible is the fact that no player can output a DTS-HD HR bitstream to a compatible receiver from a DTS-HD MA stream. They are simply two completely different encoding systems, that are not in any way compatible.

Sorry, this is incorrect!

This is what DTS filed with the patent office BTW:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...&RPN=US6226616

You can see the multiple encodings on single bitstream the diagram.

[Scorxpion]

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/

DTS Master Audio with new DTS-HD Master Audio Receiver

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dtsh...w-receiver.php

DTS-HD Master Audio with Existing Receiver

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dtsh...g-receiver.php

For anyone who is interested to get more additional about DTSHD master audio and how it does work everything even the definition.

Recommended for everyone

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Sorry, this is incorrect!

This is what DTS filed with the patent office BTW:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...&RPN=US6226616

You can see the multiple encodings on single bitstream the diagram.

The patent you show is for DTS 24/96... it doesn't even have anything to do with DTS HD... although the "Extension" system hasn't changed since then.

I've explained how it works. Everyone else seems to understand. If you disagree, fine. But I suggest you speak to some of the "insiders" who have used the MAS software. When you encode DTS HD-MA, you encode two streams a core and an XLL lossless stream, which are then packaged together. There is no DTS-HD HR stream in there.

Whatever, though...

If you don't want to believe their own manuals, whitepaper, and people who have used their software, fine. I give up. A simple search on the old insider's thread here or on discussions of DTS-HD over at AVS will show that "insiders" and others in the industry all understand how the software works. You are the only one I know claiming anything different.

Given that, I'm moving on. We can agree to disagree again. But I wanted to get the facts out there, before this went on any longer. If we can't even reach an understanding on how the codec works, though, then arguing about whether it should exist is moot. It's probably time to give up on the whole debate in this thread.

[PeterTHX]

If you don't want to believe their own manuals, whitepaper, and people who have used their software, fine. I give up. A simple search on the old insider's thread here or on discussions of DTS-HD over at AVS will show that "insiders" and others in the industry all understand how the software works. You are the only one I know claiming anything different

Then why would DTS Engineers tell me differently?

Do you work for DTS? If not...

DTS Engineer: You're getting DTS-HD from DTS-MA discs on the Panasonic BD-10 & PowerDVD.

Cyberlink programmer: We don't have full DTS-MA support yet, meantime you're getting DTS-HD from those DTS-MA discs.

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Then why would DTS Engineers tell me differently?

Do you work for DTS? If not...

Honestly, I think it comes down to horribly bad marketing and branding on the part of DTS.

Think of it this way... here's two questions that you would "think" would get you the same answer... but do not.

Q1) Can a DTS-HD HR stream (XBR) be read from a DTS-HD MA track on a Blu-ray disc? The answer is no, as there is no XBR extension available.

Q2) Can a player capable of playing back a DTS-HD HR track read a DTS-HD MA track, and play the file back? The answer is yes, however there are no XBR extensions to read or decode. It can "read" the DTS-HD stream (and can show you the VBR data-rate of the full container), BUT since the stream contains only XLL extensions it ignores it. It still is technically playing DTS-HD (as it can read the container file), but it cannot process anything other than the core substream in this case.

I do not work for DTS... but I too have spoken and emailed with engineers there. Again, I think the misunderstanding is their own fault by having terrible branding (and perhaps being somewhat disengenuous in answering your question, by not expanding on exactly what happens in the encoder and decoder).

I have used DTS MAS software and have spoken with many people who use it everyday. When you create a .dtshd file using said software you have to tell it whether you want to create a DTS-HD MA stream OR a DTS-HD HR stream... you cannot create both in the same file. When you run the file verification utility you can also see the DTS-HD extension(s) used in any file, and a file with XLL extension NEVER has an XBR extension as well.



EDIT: Aha... "DTS Engineer: You're getting DTS-HD from DTS-MA discs on the Panasonic BD-10 & PowerDVD."

That is true. You are NOT getting DTS-HD HR from either of those players, though. You are "getting" the entire DTS-HD stream read, with the XLL extensions ignored... essentially leaving you with the core track (plus metadata).

[PeterTHX]

I just wish we or the other forum had an insider from DTS like Dolby's Roger Dressler to clear up these things.

sigh

[Pseudoblu]

I have to agree with Kayne314 as I am in the same boat in regards to truly understanding the "Behind the scenes" aspects of how these formats are created, detailed and/or explained.. but from somone just comparing the sounds of each I would also and have always chosen the DTS audio setup option when included... It can be dissected as to what is superior because of this or that but when it comes down to it all... and that is what my ears find more desireable, I have chosen DTS ...and although I am a PS3 owner dying for the hopefully soon to be update that no one really knows about from what I read.. I have been able to watch movies in PCM/TrueHD/DTS-MA and would choose DTS MA.
But reading all of the back and forth comments is very interesting..

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Again, which titles with both DD @640 and DTS @1536 are you comparing to make this blanket statement?

No. The comparison is a general one. Not as rigorous as comparing DD640 and DTS1536 on the same disc, but over a large number of discs, i'm confident in my conclusion's accuracy.

[esteban2]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

There's no reason for Fox to include any other tracks on a BD in addition to a DTS-HD MA track. All Blu-Ray players must support basic internal decoding and output of standard Dolby Digital and DTS formats. As long as Fox is living up to that they can release their movies however they like.

We know they CAN release them with DTS-MA only, but they SHOULDN'T do so, because virtually no one can access it at this time.

It's a very consumer-unfriendly policy.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by esteban2

No. The comparison is a general one. Not as rigorous as comparing DD640 and DTS1536 on the same disc, but over a large number of discs, i'm confident in my conclusion's accuracy.

Well, that's not the way to compare.
To claim any kind of accuracy from that...

You are mistaking a MIX for the codec.