Doctor Who: Season 2 (Series 15)

[Deciazulado]

Doctor Who: Season Two Blu-ray

Doctor Who: Season Two Blu-ray Steelbook

[-shadow-]

Come on Beebs, gimme that 4k release all ready!

[TwinCitiesBluFan]

I had a Rarewaves rewards voucher burning a hole in my pocket, so I ordered the steelbook with it.

[darrellmaclaine]

Wonder if the axing will be announced before the series has finished airing, or indeed before the discs come out. Bad Wolf went all-out to deny it last month but Disney declined to renew their option last summer and BBC One axed it in November. Everybody in the industry knows this, they can't hold back the tide forever. What a mess.

[Grazey1]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

Wonder if the axing will be announced before the series has finished airing, or indeed before the discs come out. Bad Wolf went all-out to deny it last month but Disney declined to renew their option last summer and BBC One axed it in November. Everybody in the industry knows this, they can't hold back the tide forever. What a mess.

Wasn’t it mentioned multiple times that Disney wasn’t making any decisions till after season 2 was broadcast?

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by Grazey1

Wasn’t it mentioned multiple times that Disney wasn’t making any decisions till after season 2 was broadcast?

They've said that, many times as you say. But it isn't true, it's just astroturfing. When the Sun went with the story last month in their cackhanded way, the Beeb had already gagged two broadsheets who had it first. And the whistleblowers quoted are real - people's lives have been ruined by this and there has been zero contrition from Bad Wolf.

The BBC had a few months to decide whether they wanted to carry on alone themselves or seek another co-pro, and they decided to give it up entirely. And this was before they moved the Christmas special around the schedule last minute to demote it (after being told they couldn't bump it to the 24th for contractual reasons), meaning it ended up against the Bullseye repeat ITV had intended as a white flag against Wallace & Gromit, and still underperformed. The finale of the upcoming series was reshot a couple of months ago during Gatwa's final contract obligations to remove an open ending. It's properly, actually done.

The question remains about what to do about The War Between The Land And The Sea - a show commissioned in an act of bravado that assumed the relaunch would be a smash hit and create a whole web of franchise spinoffs, that BBC One now don't really want, and certainly not stripped out as a Monday-to-Friday event as conceived. Summer filler in a dead week? iPlayer? BBC Three?

If I were them I'd try and promote this upcoming series *as* the "last ever". People might actually watch it then?

[Grazey1]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

They've said that, many times as you say. But it isn't true, it's just astroturfing. When the Sun went with the story last month in their cackhanded way, the Beeb had already gagged two broadsheets who had it first. And the whistleblowers quoted are real - people's lives have been ruined by this and there has been zero contrition from Bad Wolf.

The BBC had a few months to decide whether they wanted to carry on alone themselves or seek another co-pro, and they decided to give it up entirely. And this was before they moved the Christmas special around the schedule last minute to demote it (after being told they couldn't bump it to the 24th for contractual reasons), meaning it ended up against the Bullseye repeat ITV had intended as a white flag against Wallace & Gromit, and still underperformed. The finale of the upcoming series was reshot a couple of months ago during Gatwa's final contract obligations to remove an open ending. It's properly, actually done.

The question remains about what to do about The War Between The Land And The Sea - a show commissioned in an act of bravado that assumed the relaunch would be a smash hit and create a whole web of franchise spinoffs, that BBC One now don't really want, and certainly not stripped out as a Monday-to-Friday event as conceived. Summer filler in a dead week? iPlayer? BBC Three?

If I were them I'd try and promote this upcoming series *as* the "last ever". People might actually watch it then?

Thing is with all these things swirling round nothing has been confirmed until the bbc confirm it themselves. Every couple of years there are rumours of the show supposedly ending. Chaos in Cardiff in 2018, David tennant leaving at the end of series 3 in 2007 and numerous others reports by the sun and other tabloids that end up being nonsense. There are rumours I do believe ie ncuti leaving and Disney being out but others like Disney wanting rtd out and tennant being lured back . If disney is out why do they care if rtd remains or not. If it’s canceled why are they trying to bring back tennant? Makes zero sense. Doctor who is the biggest export at the bbc bad ratings or not. It’s still a big cash cow for them. I doubt they are just giving up on it Disney being out or not

[Babu93]

As someone who generally enjoys the current iteration of the show, I'm honestly pretty indifferent about the idea of it being cancelled. I mean, I would prefer it to continue, but it was always going to happen at some point. 20 years is a pretty stellar run. Particularly when Who fans have been convinced the sky is falling for about 15 of those.

I think a large part of my indifference is that the success of the revived show has shown that any cancellation of Doctor Who will be temporary. That was not the case the first time around, where the show's legacy among the general public seemed to be as the butt of many jokes. But having demonstrated it can be revived as something popular, mainstream, and most importantly, financially lucrative, there's no reason why it won't be again.

I mean, I remember when I was a kid and stumbling across the BBC 2 Pertwee repeats in 1999. It was like uncovering some ancient fossil. Spending my evenings on my dial-up internet trying to find out more about it, waiting patiently for photos to load on the BBC website so I could look at all the monsters. Or saving my pocket money for a new VHS tape, always excited to get to experience a new Doctor or companion. Never in a million years did I think the show would go on to become the juggernaut it did.

Maybe it'll be off the air for a few years. Maybe more. But if it is axed, there's no doubt in my mind that it'll be back one day.

[GreatUncleBaal]

Originally Posted by Grazey1

Thing is with all these things swirling round nothing has been confirmed until the bbc confirm it themselves. Every couple of years there are rumours of the show supposedly ending.

Maureen Lipman was wandering around telling everyone on the set who would listen, that it was cancelled in Cathays inbetween takes, the same day they were filming the scooter scene in the second series.

If it happens, it happens, until then……….

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

And this was before they moved the Christmas special around the schedule last minute to demote it (after being told they couldn't bump it to the 24th for contractual reasons), meaning it ended up against the Bullseye repeat ITV had intended as a white flag against Wallace & Gromit, and still underperformed.

But...but...I keep being told the Christmas special was in the most watched TV shows on Christmas Day!

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by pferreira

But...but...I keep being told the Christmas special was in the most watched TV shows on Christmas Day!

I think the key metric is that more than half (over 5m viewers) of the people that watched Wallace & Gromit straight afterwards actively avoided watching Doctor Who beforehand, whereas the last time they shared a schedule in 2008 there was something close to parity (DW had >80% of W&G's audience in 2008, and <50% in 2024 - no "viewer habits" spin can disguise that decline in audience interest). It's fairly damning when you can't get a jumpstart off something so massive as a world premiere W&G TV movie as a lead-out, and although 4m is a good rating in any other context, and other (also tired and old) shows suffered like Strictly and Corrie and also lost on the year before... over 2m still chose a game show repeat that had already rated well a few days earlier (and that they might well have already seen!) than watch a brand new Doctor Who Christmas special. That to me is the killer.

I'm just waiting to see how they spin the ratings next month because there's got to come a point where they stop gaslighting and admit what's happening and what decisions were taken last year. They are barely even bothering with the hype machine I notice. It's on in 12 days!

[Billz]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

They've said that, many times as you say. But it isn't true, it's just astroturfing. When the Sun went with the story last month in their cackhanded way, the Beeb had already gagged two broadsheets who had it first. And the whistleblowers quoted are real - people's lives have been ruined by this and there has been zero contrition from Bad Wolf.

The BBC had a few months to decide whether they wanted to carry on alone themselves or seek another co-pro, and they decided to give it up entirely. And this was before they moved the Christmas special around the schedule last minute to demote it (after being told they couldn't bump it to the 24th for contractual reasons), meaning it ended up against the Bullseye repeat ITV had intended as a white flag against Wallace & Gromit, and still underperformed. The finale of the upcoming series was reshot a couple of months ago during Gatwa's final contract obligations to remove an open ending. It's properly, actually done.

The question remains about what to do about The War Between The Land And The Sea - a show commissioned in an act of bravado that assumed the relaunch would be a smash hit and create a whole web of franchise spinoffs, that BBC One now don't really want, and certainly not stripped out as a Monday-to-Friday event as conceived. Summer filler in a dead week? iPlayer? BBC Three?

If I were them I'd try and promote this upcoming series *as* the "last ever". People might actually watch it then?

You know that the Sun lies a lot about Doctor Who, right?

They have done for years.

If that's actually your source, then I can't take you seriously.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by Billz

You know that the Sun lies a lot about Doctor Who, right?

They have done for years.

If that's actually your source, then I can't take you seriously.

Who said The Sun was my source? As I said above there were two broadsheets who were ready to break the story a week before The Sun did and were looking for whistleblowers to go on the record as friends told me they'd been asked and refused - it was only after the announcement of Tip Toe and the implications thereof that The Sun jumped on with its garbled secondhand version of it. A lot of people have known since November when the first people got laid off and they struck the standing Tardis set (literally destroyed the thing), and then again when the Christmas scheduling to-and-fro was going on, but there was a general air of nobody wanting to be the first to say anything or hoping there might yet be a twist in the tale. By the time The Sun splurged there had already been substantive leaks on Twitter and there was a general sense of relief that the cat was out of the bag from many in the groups.

A lot of people are burying their head in the sand about all this and I get it, it's not pleasant and it's yet another ignoble end for Doctor Who, but it's not a lie or a whisper campaign or a conspiracy theory. It's not like there aren't fairly blatant clues by now either anyway even if you disregard the leaks and rumours and tabloid stuff - where's all the series 2 hype? Where's the coverage? Where was it on Comic Relief? Where's the chat show bookings? It was the premiere tonight and that's the first time Ncuti Gatwa has appeared in public in connection to the show for months - it's on the weekend after next! Compare to how heavily the BBC have been promoting and cross-promoting Gladiators for the last three months and with no sign of stopping - it doesn't take a genius to see they've moved on.

[CouncilSpectre]

The BBC should never have got themselves into a position of the show being heavily dependent on external funding. A big budget is not the be-all-and-end-all. I never really had any issues with the earlier seasons; yep lots of soundstages, lots of quarry-shoots, couldn't give a f**k as the stories were often great and we had fantastic leads.

Surrendering creative control for more £££ was a terrible decision that enabled a lot of the issues that the franchise now faces. Yes, it'll be back at some point I'm sure, but this demise is completely self-inflicted, completely unnecessary and completely avoidable.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

The BBC should never have got themselves into a position of the show being heavily dependent on external funding. A big budget is not the be-all-and-end-all.

The part of this that people overlook too is that the Disney deal effectively voids the international sales because this Disney money isn't the magical, no-catch cash injection people talk of it as, it's a flat advance buyout on the overseas broadcast deals that are all now severed and which used to bring in a reasonable, significant yield on their own. It's taken real return on the series, speculated it on increased production values which haven't made any difference at all to audience engagement, and created an irreversible mistake that's killed a show that I think still had a chance in 2022.

The biggest killer though has been the arrogance in the editorial/creative side. A show on the bones of its arse, and instead of going into 'how do we get the audience back?' emergency recovery mode, it fell in the 'how do we annoy all the right people?' trap that's murdering franchises left, right and centre. An obsession with defeating random people you don't like on the internet - over trying to bring in and enchant as many people as possible - never, ever works. That's why the audience, who did tentatively come back in 2023, switched off. People don't like being alienated and purity-tested, regardless of what their politics or beliefs are. You've got a big show, you are going to have to meet halfway a lot of audience demographics you might not like if you met them personally. Tough, it's their money too, and your job.

[MrChristoph]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

i think the key metric is that more than half (over 5m viewers) of the people that watched wallace & gromit straight afterwards actively avoided watching doctor who beforehand, whereas the last time they shared a schedule in 2008 there was something close to parity

The two situations aren't exactly equal. In 2008 it had only been a few years since the last Wallace & Gromit film, and Vengeance Most Fowl had the benefit of a limited theatrical release and the additional publicity that entails. I don't think it's colossally surprising surprising that twice as many people would want to watch the first new W&G in 16 years than the 19th near-consecutive Doctor Who festive episode.

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

it fell in the 'how do we annoy all the right people?' trap that's murdering franchises left, right and centre.

What specific creative choices are you talking about?

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by MrChristoph

The two situations aren't exactly equal. In 2008 it had only been a few years since the last Wallace & Gromit film, and Vengeance Most Fowl had the benefit of a limited theatrical release and the additional publicity that entails. I don't think it's colossally surprising surprising that twice as many people would want to watch the first new W&G in 16 years than the 19th near-consecutive Doctor Who festive episode.

I'm genuinely not sure what point you're trying to make here. W&G was equally popular in 2008 and 2024, DW wasn't.

Originally Posted by MrChristoph

What specific creative choices are you talking about?

Any and all boring, disingenuous goading designed to elicit either a cheer of agreement or a boo of disapproval. It's childish and it turns most emotionally intelligent people off regardless of their position on anything. "It's good that x or y hates it" - no, it isn't good that anyone hates it. Shops don't draw up lists of types of customers they do and don't want, they just work out how to get as much money as possible in the till.

[SoundableObject]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

I'm genuinely not sure what point you're trying to make here. W&G was equally popular in 2008 and 2024, DW wasn't.

Gavin and Stacey too. The exceptions that prove the rule, me thinks. Doctor Who is in line with many other shows. Not event TV but not bad by any means. Certainly not ratings to worry about.

The latest Xmas special was ranked 7th for the week. 7 Christmas Specials did better. 6 did equal or worse. Pretty much slap bang average for a Christmas Special.

[MrChristoph]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

I'm genuinely not sure what point you're trying to make here. W&G was equally popular in 2008 and 2024, DW wasn't.

1. Wallace & Gromit had early social media reactions and rave reviews from the festival screenings and limited release, plus coverage of events like like the AFI Q&A.
2. Something that only comes around every 10-15 years is naturally going to feel more special than something that comes every Christmas (give or take). A new Doctor Who is tradition, a new Wallace & Gromit is an event. As was Gavin and Stacey, I gather, as that resolved a 5-year cliffhanger.

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

Any and all boring, disingenuous goading designed to elicit either a cheer of agreement or a boo of disapproval.

But, in terms of examples, what are you actually talking about?
Who are they 'intentionally' trying to upset? How does this show itself in the finished episodes?

[SoundableObject]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

The BBC should never have got themselves into a position of the show being heavily dependent on external funding. A big budget is not the be-all-and-end-all. I never really had any issues with the earlier seasons; yep lots of soundstages, lots of quarry-shoots, couldn't give a f**k as the stories were often great and we had fantastic leads.

Surrendering creative control for more £££ was a terrible decision that enabled a lot of the issues that the franchise now faces. Yes, it'll be back at some point I'm sure, but this demise is completely self-inflicted, completely unnecessary and completely avoidable.

It was that or the show may very well have been "rested" again, I hear. Look at the TV landscape in the UK. So many BBC productions are co-productions these days (including Wallace and Gromit). Red Dwarf had a hugely successful special in 2020 but can't get the budget together for another.

Disney have said it has done well for a lower budgeted show (which it is from their perspective). I've heard the issue is that the show doesn't sustain subscriptions despite drawing them in. It makes me wonder if Disney are looking for a more significant back catalogue as part of the deal (i.e. all of the new series or maybe even the classic series).