When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[Neo65]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

I think you are looking at this one deminsionally and from a one sided perspective. I was a insider on AVS, and I will tell you, they tried to bridle me everytime I went over there to snuff out some lie that Disney was going red. Everytime things didn't go quite right with HD DVD, Amir would say "keep your chin up, just did a presentation for Disney, and they were really impressed. We wowed them". This is a chum throwing tactic that is not only deceiving, it was damn right dishonest. There was never a presentation, and Disney was never considering going red or neutral at ANY time. When I tried to point this out, my threads were deleted, and his were allowed to remain. I finally boycotted AVS, had my insider status removed, and stop going there. I was not rude, nobody thought I was rude, nobody complained that I was rude, I just brought truth to counter a lie.

I do have to agree that there was that large pre CES-2007 BIG-LIE that every red supporter was doing the wink-wink-Disney-going-red bit. I was neutral at that point and was surprised but thought there was something going on, but I suspect also that a great big many people got suckered into buying more red movies thinking that with Disney on board, that dual formats was a reality. Disney's statements during CES-07 was a surprise --- particularly the strength of their blu-support.

It was a major milestone --- I decided then that I will scale back red disk purchase to exclusives that I really really really want to watch.

At around October to December '06, the Disney rumor did make me buy a few more red catalog disks than I would have as it painted a much stronger red position than reality.

In hindsight, I should have stuck with my earlier assessment on the stronger BD position and avoided the red catalogs that I now will have to rebuy in blue. There were a lot more of the "jump in, the water's fine" from the red supporters trying to get more people to commit to the red format. I can't say that a comparable number of blu supporters did the same. The most rational voices were the ones who asked people to wait it out. There were a lot of deeply commited blu-ray supporters who said "wait it out if you're not an early adopter" --- that there is also an acknowledgement that there were a lot more adults in the blue side of the fence than the red.

And yes, I bought into both formats very early. By June, I was somewhat taken aback at what was going on in the insider's forums at some other sites, that's why I came to this site.

[Anthony P]

It is very difficult to go on AVS as a Blu-ray insider and disagree with one of the Microsoft crew. I've had posts edited and deleted which turned me into the bad guy, it is part of why I don't bother with AVS anymore. I saw the same thing about to happen at HTF, so I nipped it in the bud rather than getting irritated for no reason.

not just with insiders. I was a very long time member with many many posts there, but in the end I just had enough. The problem is that they decided not to have a site for enthusiasts any more. As for the butchering I think that they took a tool that used to work (letting people point out issues with posts) and let it go insane. The issue is that they refused to get rid of the trouble makers, people there just to FUD and con others. So what happened then they used the “report post tool” to destroy AVS. The mods just became tools because they where spammed by so many reports that thy just deleted what ever was reported without even looking. So any post that brought in facts enede up getting deleted and any posts that spread FUD stayed. I am not defending them , in the end it was their job to make sure things never should have gotten to that point, but I think they where more tools then anything else.

[Anthony P]

I do have to agree that there was that large pre CES-2007 BIG-LIE that every red supporter was doing the wink-wink-Disney-going-red bit.

"reports" of BD studios changing sides started even before that. go back and look at posts in August/Sept 2006 all the red boys where trying to convince people that blue studios would go red.

[gvortex7]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

That is a serious problem...but not our problem. If they want to deprive themselves from HDM because of their hate for Blu-Ray, that is in no way my problem and I don't think we need them on board.

The bashing will stop eventually...most likely a few months after all the HD DVD hardware is gone and the holdouts realize that they are only short-changing themselves by not getting behind Blu-Ray, because I know I am going to be enjoying Blu-Ray while they are stuck with SD or low quality downloads.

Thank you. These were my thoughts exactly. The early HD DVD adopters (especially the strictly pro HD DVD adopters) represent such a small percentage of the buying public that they barely even register on a radar. So, if their hate for Sony or for Blu-ray as a format is such a huge deterring factor in buying into the format, then it is clearly their loss and not Blu-rays. The people we need to go after are the fence sitters who have been waiting patiently for a clear winner in this so-called format war, and of course most importantly the current, regular DVD owners/watchers. Those are the ones that will have to be convinced that Blu-ray is clearly a superior alternative to DVD when watching movies. But, as more and more people buy large screen HDTV's, the less convincing they will need to upgrade to Blu-ray. The difference between watching upconverted DVD's or Blu-rays on these screens will be obvious to most.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

On a side note this is a pretty good description of what actually happened, so those of you ranting at Samsung need to get a few things in perspective...

The 5000 was a side-deal in exchange for technology licenses. Samsung never REALLY wanted to put out anything supporting HD DVD. It was rushed (gotta have it out there) and clearly the enthusiasm wasn't there from the engineers (it's pretty lousy).

Everyone wants to make money in their business. And when you're partner is determined to destroy the margins, why would anyone want to continue with that?

A segment of posters was lost in some socialist/egalitarian fantasy and failed to remember that businesses were involved: CEs/retailers wanting to make profit and studios also wanting to protect their content.

You could tell the uber-clueless. They were the ones who thought abandoning DVD for DVD/HD DVD combos was possible. And that the STUDIOS were somehow interested in winning HD DVD's battle for them.

Gary

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Come to think of it, has anybody read anything by AV guru Joe Kane (you know, the one who said Blu-ray was all about 'greed'? Last year he was preaching that the HDM future would be dominated by combo player and TotalHD hybrid discs.

He might have published something on Widescreen Review, but I wouldn't know - I let my subscription lapse after their shameful September 07 interview with Paramount, where they harped on replication issues and PiP, while sweeping the capacity/bandwidth issues under the carpet. The Paramount CTO hints that future releases by the studio might lack lossless audio and you don't press the matter further? What kind of journalist does that?

He has been very quiet. Buy, hey, did he ever admit his notion was wrong about 720p being all that we ever needed as consumers?

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Come to think of it, has anybody read anything by AV guru Joe Kane (you know, the one who said Blu-ray was all about 'greed'? Last year he was preaching that the HDM future would be dominated by combo player and TotalHD hybrid discs.

I remember early into BD's launch he blamed MPEG-2 for the PQ issues. This is a guy that DID know better being an expert on DTheater. And yet, he spewed Toshiba-FUD.

I know he's a long time consultant for Toshiba, but he lost a ton of street cred with that.

His previous gaffe (in 2003) was to push for 720p over 1080i, using the argument that 1080p displays would take too long to arrive at a decent prices. Ooops.

Gary

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Everytime things didn't go quite right with HD DVD, Amir would say "keep your chin up, just did a presentation for Disney, and they were really impressed. We wowed them". This is a chum throwing tactic that is not only deceiving, it was damn right dishonest. There was never a presentation, and Disney was never considering going red or neutral at ANY time.

The latter was clear, but I'm amazed about the former. Amir LIED about presentations to Disney?

Wow. You just wiped out what little respect I had left for the man. That is simply unforgiveable. And AVS is duplicitous for supporting him through it all unchecked.

Gary

[Grubert]

dvdfile has posted another article castigating Toshiba's sour grapes and some 'misguided pundits':

The hype of doom and gloom

Don't miss it.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by Grubert

dvdfile has posted another article castigating Toshiba's sour grapes and some 'misguided pundits':

The hype of doom and gloom

Don't miss it.

Good read...

[MatrixS2000]

Dan Ramer and DVDFile =

Into my sig that article goes...

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

The latter was clear, but I'm amazed about the former. Amir LIED about presentations to Disney?

Wow. You just wiped out what little respect I had left for the man. That is simply unforgiveable. And AVS is duplicitous for supporting him through it all unchecked.

Gary

Did Amir explicitly mention Disney, because that would be dishonest. If he had said a Blu-ray studio then sure Paramount and WB counted as Blu-ray studios. I expect he left it ambiguous so that people assumed Disney and just didn't bother to correct them.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Grubert

dvdfile has posted another article castigating Toshiba's sour grapes and some 'misguided pundits':

The hype of doom and gloom

Don't miss it.

Awesome!

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Did Amir explicitly mention Disney, because that would be dishonest. If he had said a Blu-ray studio then sure Paramount and WB counted as Blu-ray studios. I expect he left it ambiguous so that people assumed Disney and just didn't bother to correct them.

I don't have a link, but I recall him claiming that MS had done a test encode of Pearl Harbor.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by patrick99

I don't have a link, but I recall him claiming that MS had done a test encode of Pearl Harbor.

Again, did he explicitly say it was an HD DVD specific or just say they did a VC-1 encode for Disney and he let people assume that as MS was a HD DVD supporting company it would be a HD DVD specific test.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Again, did he explicitly say it was an HD DVD specific or just say they did a VC-1 encode for Disney and he let people assume that as MS was a HD DVD supporting company it would be a HD DVD specific test.

I think it was probably the second, but without having his exact words I can't say for sure.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

I remember early into BD's launch he blamed MPEG-2 for the PQ issues. This is a guy that DID know better being an expert on DTheater. And yet, he spewed Toshiba-FUD.

I know he's a long time consultant for Toshiba, but he lost a ton of street cred with that.

His previous gaffe (in 2003) was to push for 720p over 1080i, using the argument that 1080p displays would take too long to arrive at a decent prices. Ooops.

Gary

Joe Kane staked his reputation on HD DVD, Bill Hunt staked his on Blu-ray. Both of them HT enthusiasts, which one came out the winner?

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Joe Kane staked his reputation on HD DVD, Bill Hunt staked his on Blu-ray. Both of them HT enthusiasts, which one came out the winner?

Here's a hint: I won't be buying DVE BD edition.

[scott1256ca]

From the dvdfile article, both times quoting Mr. Nishida of Toshiba

The first involves scaling, “If you watch standard DVDs on our [DVD] players, the images are of very high quality because they include an ‘upconverting’ feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images. The players would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too. Next-generation DVD players are in a much weaker position than when standard DVD players were first introduced.”

then

When asked about Toshiba’s pursuing the HD video download market, he replied, “That's what we're hoping. We've been developing technologies in this area already, but now that we don't have the HD DVD business, I want to put even more energy into that.”

If Mr. Nishida is of the opinion that upscaled dvd is as good as HD, why is Toshiba pursuing a HD download model, instead of SD?

That these guys can't get a consistent story doesn't surprise me. It was HD DVD's legacy.

"more space is good, but BD having more than us is a waste, unless it is 51G then it is the correct number"
"more bandwidth is good, but BD having more than us is a waste"
"more flexible interactivity is good, but BD having more more flexible than us is a waste"

As to Amir, he was a master of innuendo. Go look at his posts he implies much but seldom ever commits to anything, so if he implied that Disney was going neutral, but never actually committed to it, or corrected someone else saying it flat out, that would be in keeping with his posting history.

[TheRealBob]

Originally Posted by JTK

Here's a hint: I won't be buying DVE BD edition.

Oh, so that's why Digital Video Essentials initially came out on HD DVD only.

Ha ha -- and what a great version it was! Apparently it instructed you to print out a hundred pages of stuff so you'd know how to use the calibration screens because they didn't have time to do narration for it. People on Amazon were furious about that.

I personally am not holding any format-war related grudges, so I'll pick up the BD version of it if it gets good reviews. The Sony and Disney calibration things on some BDs just didn't leave me feeling that confident that I have everything set correctly as DVE did for my SD inputs.

But if I'm expected to print out a giant manual to use it, then forget it.