Commentary from the Insiders Thread

[jason_grumpy]

Originally Posted by mattym

so on AVS Vaugn says paid hasnt disputed the low yeilds, yet has posted yields on here...so let me see..journolistic integrety and facts 0 - Vaugn 1.

credibility is lost with me now. so writing a few lines on the internet makes him special?

More like fishing for NDA violations...

Paid did comment on it, once. If he didn't comment to Vaugn directly is not an excuse. I wonder why they are so interested in yields. I'm more inclined to believe Max on this issue that it's an edge of the disc problem over 23/46, not a problem with BD50.

[Esox50]

I was thinking the same thing about Vaughn's "I'm hard on HD DVD, wait til you see my latest review." That's not the same as posting unverified info on BD50.

If he gave a glowing review of the HD DVD disc, anyone can go down to the store and buy it, take it home, and find out the reviewer was being dis-ingenuous.

On the other hand, 99% of the people who are reading his replication posts have no way of verifying the claim.

That's total apples and oranges. Even more ludicrous than Universal, WB, and Parmount announcing BD exclusivity tomorrow and all future releases on BD50, which would cause the "replication problem".

[dialog_gvf]

David seems to be determined to make up a business argument for why HD DVD will succeed.

1. They get the ability to sell more players to consumers. The more players that there are, the greater likelihood of disc purchases (duh!).

2. With more players in the marketplace and more discs being sold, the cost advantages of HD DVD start to really matter!

3. With these cost advantages, the actual sales of software can still be tilted towards Blu-ray, but the actual profit generated by said sales is higher on the HD DVD side because of the cost structure.

4. Finally, the added production capabilities of HD DVD start to take over because they can continue to flood the market with discs while the Blu-ray side is saddled with slow production of BD50's because of only having two manufacturing plants in the world that can handle their releases (unless BD25's become the disc of choice out of necessity).

1. BD will sell much more.

2. BD is selling much MORE. What part of selling discs won't the studios get?

3. At 2-3:1 sales and increasing? How about if it gets to 10:1?

4. So now we know the purpose of the yield argument. It's already now fact since he's said it so much this week. So, now it can be used to draw conclusions?

Well done.

[Icemage]

It's rather amusing for David Vaugh to say he's "tough on HD DVD" because of one bad review on a single disc.

We Are Marshall is a neutral release from Warner, and thus the Blu-ray would most likely get an equally punishing treatment.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Icemage

It's rather amusing for David Vaugh to say he's "tough on HD DVD" because of one bad review on a single disc.

We Are Marshall is a neutral release from Warner, and thus the Blu-ray would most likely get an equally punishing treatment.

David doesn't review any BD exclusive studios.

Perhaps if Chad and him exchanged studios on occasion, we'd get a better view of his impartiality.

Gary

[NutsAboutPS3]

Originally Posted by Frode

Instead we have a prolonged format war which ensures that neither side will even reach the sales numbers where disc stamping costs matter. The studios lose, the hardware manufacturers lose (particularly Toshiba), and we as consumers lose because at some point the studios may just say it's not worth it

I think of it as share of the cake vs size of the cake. The format war keeps the total cake small. A studio being BD exclusive reduces their share of the cake right now compared to being neutral, BUT by being neutral they are prolonging the format war and keeping the cake small.

If all the studios got behind Blu-ray, the total cake size would become much bigger.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Guys, I am appealing to sense, here. Do you think we could lay off Dave please?

We are not, I hope, like the rabid fanboys on AVS and I think when Dave says he has sources; we can trust he does.

I don't want this place to turn into AVS Mk II, so a little bit of decorum would be nice.

If you feel you have a point to make about the validity of Dave's information could you do so in a non-offensive manner. I really do think he means well, and does bring up a few points that we can debate about without becoming offensive.

I think we have to be vigilant when his posts introduce nonsense, verbal and conceptual confusion and fallacies of argument which are prejudicial to his HD-DVD apologetics.

For examples of this please see my post #811 in this thread (rebutting David's #787, #789 and #793 on the subject of compressed audio) and my #900 on compressed video (rebutting his #898).

[dialog_gvf]

As much as I hate the idea of starting FUD, it's time to hit back on the HD DVD combos.

They are a central concept for new HD DVD releases. And there is clear evidence to show they are quality control disaster.

It is possible so many bad combos get out into the wild because they let questionable discs out the door due to the yields on the combos being atrocious.

Otherwise, someone needs to explain how a disc goes out of spec after it passes QC.

Gary

[Jamh]

I would seriously like to know why Dave has not responded to Insider's challenging his yield rates? He was quick to use Max to validate his sources based on hardcoating, yet he conveniently missed his previous post refuting his original claim.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

It is possible so many bad combos get out into the wild because they let questionable discs out the door due to the yields on the combos being atrocious.

My guess is it's because either the QC process isn't good enough (discs with errors pass QC), or they don't test all discs for the problem. Iirc DVDs have a system where they have several QC levels. Some are used on all discs, and catch certain types of errors, while others are only used on samples from each batch as they are more thorough and take longer. Ideally they'd figure out exactly what's going wrong with combos and find a way to fix it and/or test for it on all stamped discs. If that's not possible they may have to do more thorough tests on smaller batches and more often than they do today.

Until they can actually filter all bad discs or fix the cause they'll still have problems. DVDs aren't perfect either, but the failure rate seems to be much lower in comparison. Extensive QC will also increase the replication costs, so it's not just yield playing a factor in that. They may have just decided that they'd rather deal with disc exchanges and let the consumer handle the extra QC, than pay for it on the replication side.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

As much as I hate the idea of starting FUD, it's time to hit back on the HD DVD combos.

They are a central concept for new HD DVD releases. And there is clear evidence to show they are quality control disaster.

It is possible so many bad combos get out into the wild because they let questionable discs out the door due to the yields on the combos being atrocious.

Otherwise, someone needs to explain how a disc goes out of spec after it passes QC.

Gary

I don't think you will get many takers on this. It isn't the way the Blu side does things.

All I can say is that combo pricing is far from competitive with BD50, even after subsidisation.

[WickyWoo]

Otherwise, someone needs to explain how a disc goes out of spec after it passes QC.

Badly glued layers, QC before complete cooling, some defect int he machines that put the discs in the boxes (I believe this is now automated many places)

Basically look at DVD-18 and multiply for complexity

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Frode

Extensive QC will also increase the replication costs...

and decrease the yields.

Originally Posted by Frode

They may have just decided that they'd rather deal with disc exchanges and let the consumer handle the extra QC, than pay for it on the replication side.

Yes, this is Business 101, and the net effect is increased customer dissatisfaction.

[Iceman_II]

Originally Posted by jdsanko

Regarding network support for BD. For me, if it is not wireless, it is useless. My cable modem and router are upstairs and the BD player is downstairs in the family room. I don't plan to rewire my house for the BD player, or disconnect it to move to a wired connection for an update.

The HD-DVD folks make such a big deal about the ethernet port. Actually the best Hi Def player fdrom either format on the market regarding this is the PS3 with it's built in wirless connection.

Not so much on the utility of wireless-ness on the PS3... don't get me wrong, I love my PS3, and its online capabilities, HOWEVER... the wireless connectivity is not that useful when streaming HD content, when you get bitrate spikes above about 20bmps, you get pixelation and drop outs. This is why I keep my PS3 wired.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

Penton 4 prezident. Paidgeek VP.

Actually............Senators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBjBClBSao

[frank_t]

Originally Posted by Iceman_II

Not so much on the utility of wireless-ness on the PS3... don't get me wrong, I love my PS3, and its online capabilities, HOWEVER... the wireless connectivity is not that useful when streaming HD content, when you get bitrate spikes above about 20bmps, you get pixelation and drop outs. This is why I keep my PS3 wired.

Yep - I do the same. keep it wired.

When I was attempting to stream some AVCHD video I shot on my Panny over wireless, it was terrible.

The PS3 truely is an amazing piece of hardware. I wish Sony could figure out an effective marketing campaign for gamers and movie buffs. Or perhaps they have some kind of "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" agreement with other BD hardware makers to not push the PS3 too hard.

Afterall, for $499, it is one of the best BD players out there.

[Proteus]

Timing is everything.

Though I do think Sony has fubar'd the marketing on the PS3 quite a bit, it is also true that it really didn't have any software to offer yet so no sense over hyping.

By this holiday the software should be there in sufficient quantity to fully justify some serious expenditure. I'm sure that spending will include Blu-ray.

[bryaaaant]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Though I do think Sony has fubar'd the marketing on the PS3

People forget easily. Technically, almost nothing is actually ever fubar'd in terms of marketing, no? Great marketing + great products, in PS3's case, great games coming up + new functionalities will easily repair any marketing slip up they've had.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

It is possible so many bad combos get out into the wild because they let questionable discs out the door due to the yields on the combos being atrocious.

Look at all these HD DVD combo re-issues:

October 02, 2007

* The Ant Bully (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* The Departed (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* The Fountain (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Good Night, and Good Luck (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Happy Feet (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Lady in the Water (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* The Lake House (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Letters from Iwo Jima (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Rumor Has It... (Re-Issue) (Warner)
* Superman Returns (Re-Issue) (Warner)

Anyone not believe that HD DVD Combos have a problem????

[WickyWoo]

I want Superman Returns (Blu reissue) with my PCM and THD damnit