Master and Commander 4K UHD (2003)

[ddogg]

Originally Posted by sidetracked1

Not if you've ever worked on a film, where the entire post production process - editing, color timing, sound mixing, etc - is taking all those many things you went through lots of trouble getting, and then deciding which to keep, which to lose, and which to modify.

If filmmakers kept everything - untouched and unmodified- they worked really hard to get, films would all be 4 hours long, and be overloaded with sounds and images that didn't work in the final version.

This doesn't even make sense...

How does this even pertain to the lack of frequencies that were on the last disc

[madfloyd]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Very much this, lots of GOOD subs don't get anywhere near 20Hz with authority. This issue affects users with subs that hit to 20Hz and below with aplomb.



We may not be able to change what's on the disc, but we can do a pretty fine job of restoring the filtered frequencies using the 2x4 HD from miniDSP and BEQ freeware. Then we can enjoy the excellent Atmos mix without missing the infrasonics.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/bas...#post-64125947

Yeah, it's much much better, but it's not perfect. For example, in M&C's first battle scene there's a quick scene of a flag flapping in the wind and that has VERY prominent bass for some reason.

Admittedly, I don't know how the folks determine which frequencies to raise such that it serves the entire movie without artifacts, but there are often 2 or 3 authors for each title to choose from.

[ddogg]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Very much this, lots of GOOD subs don't get anywhere near 20Hz with authority. This issue affects users with subs that hit to 20Hz and below with aplomb.



We may not be able to change what's on the disc, but we can do a pretty fine job of restoring the filtered frequencies using the 2x4 HD from miniDSP and BEQ freeware. Then we can enjoy the excellent Atmos mix without missing the infrasonics.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/bas...#post-64125947

Digging deeper than 20hz is the basic requirements of a "good sub"

A basic house curve is all thats needed for the DTS track of M&C.

Beq's are a must on the new Atmos and the DD tracks.

[Randy Miller III]

I've yet to listen to the Atmos track myself, but it's quite possible that the lower frequencies were compromised in an attempt to cater to those with lesser subwoofers similar to Edge of Tomorrow's 4K release, as its opening sequence on Blu-ray remains a serial killer of entry-level subs.

[KcMsterpce]

Honestly, from age-old education on "How Things Work", a 12" sub usually goes down to about 13-20hz. But a 15" sub will go lower, down to like 8hz. In the most general sense (all brands, and models have different levels of course).
So ultimately, the question comes to how much anyone PERCIEVES on top of what their home theater is capable of, and how all of their subs (be it one, or even four) are placed in a room.
Anything below around 25hz becomes a deep rumble that is FELT more than "heard". It adds to the "ass rattle" factor, not particularly because you literally HEAR it.

With such low frequency levels, the wave will be "empty" and have no impact in 3-6foot (1-2meter) distances, which is why a person going for the "sweet spot" on subs will do the "sub crawl", where you move your sub a couple feet at a time to find the spot where the peak of the wave hits the spot you're sitting at.

You get more than one sub to fill in the trough of a soundwave at low khz to fill in and match consistency from the empty spot(s) of the initial sub.

Also, you can shift phase of how the sub distributes sound at such low levels to ameliorate the cross-phase negation from subs taking away the LFE from one to the other because they are not syc'd to each other.
Sub1 will have the peak at 2 feet, then sound "empty" at 3-5 feet.... the second sub (which should be the same model) will fill in that "empty" spot.... so you have two subs - one soundwave is up/down... the down part has no impact where you're sitting. The SECOND sub will be placed so that the "empty" part of the soundwave fills in the first sub. So anywhere you sit, you get the same LFE impact.
However, if the subs aren't sync'd properly, then those soundwaves will cancel each other out when hitting the same level and it will make more empty spots. Thus, the phase cancelling option.

But I mean... seriously, how many people are really going to notice one super-low frequency release from another that removes it in the real world?
Some who say they don't hear it with their 15" sub might be due to only having ONE sub in their system.
Furthermore, if they have two subs, one is 10" and the other is 15" and they are sitting in a spot where the LFE frequency cancels each other out and they are sitting in a dead spot that phase cancels the 'impact' of what they're looking for.
So on and so on and so on....

Realizing that something is missing in low-level LFE is one thing.
Perceiving it is something else entirely. Additionally, that is ALL based on how the room is acclimated with the equipment, AND based on subjective perception.
Seeing a graph is enough for many to say "I know it's different because the graph says so, and now I have decided that I notice it."

I can't believe how many pages we've gone through with this argument. It's tiresome.
But yet here I am, posting about it.
Man.

I am just wondering what people think of the release overall.

I have the DVD now. I will watch key scenes on it after watching the 4k UHD that I have from my friend that bought it.
I am curious how much I will be able to discern from the DVD audio compared to the 4k audio. But that might be this weekend.

In the end, I doubt I will be upset enough to proclaim that this release is a disaster.

Then again... I might prove myself wrong when I finally do an A/B comparison. *shrug*

[OSHAN]

Originally Posted by Randy Miller III

I've yet to listen to the Atmos track myself, but it's quite possible that the lower frequencies were compromised in an attempt to cater to those with lesser subwoofers similar to Edge of Tomorrow's 4K release, as its opening sequence on Blu-ray remains a serial killer of entry-level subs.

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by Randy Miller III

it's quite possible that the lower frequencies were compromised in an attempt to cater to those with lesser subwoofers similar to Edge of Tomorrow's 4K release, as its opening sequence on Blu-ray remains a serial killer of entry-level subs.

I floated that theory to someone who works in the industry, and he said it's not true, that lesser subs would just roll off.

[LBJ2]

Originally Posted by KcMsterpce

Honestly, from age-old education on "How Things Work", a 12" sub usually goes down to about 13-20hz. But a 15" sub will go lower, down to like 8hz. In the most general sense (all brands, and models have different levels of course).
So ultimately, the question comes to how much anyone PERCIEVES on top of what their home theater is capable of, and how all of their subs (be it one, or even four) are placed in a room.
Anything below around 25hz becomes a deep rumble that is FELT more than "heard". It adds to the "ass rattle" factor, not particularly because you literally HEAR it.

With such low frequency levels, the wave will be "empty" and have no impact in 3-6foot (1-2meter) distances, which is why a person going for the "sweet spot" on subs will do the "sub crawl", where you move your sub a couple feet at a time to find the spot where the peak of the wave hits the spot you're sitting at.

You get more than one sub to fill in the trough of a soundwave at low khz to fill in and match consistency from the empty spot(s) of the initial sub.

Also, you can shift phase of how the sub distributes sound at such low levels to ameliorate the cross-phase negation from subs taking away the LFE from one to the other because they are not syc'd to each other.
Sub1 will have the peak at 2 feet, then sound "empty" at 3-5 feet.... the second sub (which should be the same model) will fill in that "empty" spot.... so you have two subs - one soundwave is up/down... the down part has no impact where you're sitting. The SECOND sub will be placed so that the "empty" part of the soundwave fills in the first sub. So anywhere you sit, you get the same LFE impact.
However, if the subs aren't sync'd properly, then those soundwaves will cancel each other out when hitting the same level and it will make more empty spots. Thus, the phase cancelling option.

But I mean... seriously, how many people are really going to notice one super-low frequency release from another that removes it in the real world?
Some who say they don't hear it with their 15" sub might be due to only having ONE sub in their system.
Furthermore, if they have two subs, one is 10" and the other is 15" and they are sitting in a spot where the LFE frequency cancels each other out and they are sitting in a dead spot that phase cancels the 'impact' of what they're looking for.
So on and so on and so on....

Realizing that something is missing in low-level LFE is one thing.
Perceiving it is something else entirely. Additionally, that is ALL based on how the room is acclimated with the equipment, AND based on subjective perception.
Seeing a graph is enough for many to say "I know it's different because the graph says so, and now I have decided that I notice it."

I can't believe how many pages we've gone through with this argument. It's tiresome.
But yet here I am, posting about it.
Man.

I am just wondering what people think of the release overall.

I have the DVD now. I will watch key scenes on it after watching the 4k UHD that I have from my friend that bought it.
I am curious how much I will be able to discern from the DVD audio compared to the 4k audio. But that might be this weekend.

In the end, I doubt I will be upset enough to proclaim that this release is a disaster.

Then again... I might prove myself wrong when I finally do an A/B comparison. *shrug*

I've already done A/B between Dolby Atmos and DTS:HD on the Bluray to include measurements before and after. *I donated all my DVDs so no longer have the DVD to compare with the latter.

There is a notable difference you can hear, feel and see regarding the low frequency response aka "nerfed". With that said, w/ DA mix, I can now hear plenty of details and clear dialog in the DA sound mix throughout every scene in the entire movie without jacking up the center speaker, applying voice enhancement settings, or worse riding the volume. The overall sound is more balanced and clean IMO but still very dramatic where it needs to be but yes, lacks the infrasonic frequency that some feel is paramount for their movies at home.

When I compare to Dune or Dune 2 Dolby Atmos, M&C doesn't dig as low/robust but that may have something to do with applying Dialnorm, DRC and LFE bandpass correctly for this 20+ year old sound mix ( guessing as I don't know).

OTOH, As the BEQ aficionados have already commented and I have seen on the BEQ Catalog, the infrasonic frequencies are still there on the Dolby Atmos sound track and can be revived/un-filtered for those that need/want it.

Curios. Question to the BEQ Aficionados, has anyone measured frequency response of M&C Dolby Atmos before and after BEQ un-filtering? I am curious what happens to the rest of the sound mix frequencies after BEQ un-filtering. How is dialog and details without making manual dialog adjustments for instance with full infrasonic frequencies un-filtered?

[Captain Keen]

This is one case where I just went with the path of least resistance. $5 for the 4K on Vudu/FAH. Vs. trying to hunt down a steelbook at insane prices, some of which are over $100 a pop. Insane.

I recently got copies of Sinners, Fallout, and Kingdom of Heaven steelbooks from Amazon for their lowest prices and somehow they were all in mint condition. So I feel like my luck will run out soon anyway. I usually get lucky with Amazon and don’t have the problems others report here, at least for new releases. Older releases? They usually look like they’ve sat on a shelf in the elements for years so I try to buy from elsewhere.

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by LBJ2

w/ DA mix, I can now hear plenty of details and clear dialog in the DA sound mix throughout every scene in the entire movie without jacking up the center speaker, applying voice enhancement settings, or worse riding the volume. The overall sound is more balanced and clean IMO but still very dramatic where it needs to be but yes, lacks the infrasonic frequency that some feel is paramount for their movies at home.

With the DVD mix, which I muxed, dialogue was quite clear at all times. Loud parts were very loud, of course, and I liked that. Wide dynamic range. Bass literally kicked me in the seat and massaged my back. I love it.

As the BEQ aficionados have already commented and I have seen on the BEQ Catalog, the infrasonic frequencies are still there on the Dolby Atmos sound track and can be revived/un-filtered for those that need/want it.

That's probably a better solution than what I did (although a friend who has the UHD and the BD prefers the BD), but I didn't want to spend over 300 bucks for a minidsp to achieve that.

[RocShemp]

My copy just shipped from Amazon today! It's due to arrive next Tuesday.

[sidetracked1]

Originally Posted by ddogg

This doesn't even make sense...

How does this even pertain to the lack of frequencies that were on the last disc

Because the ongoing discussion was about RobertR's assumption that Weir wanted those ultra low frequencies, and there was no way the blu-ray/4K mix was as he intended. I agree that it's certainly possible, even likely that those frequencies shouldn't have been lost.

However, without access to the original track as laid down for the theatrical release, I feel there's no way to know for sure if what was on the DVD was more accurate to the filmmaker's intent. In the same way people often look at colors or other elements of an earlier release and assume that earlier home version was what the filmmaker wanted, and that new releases that are different are the ones that are 'wrong'.

But the reality was that DVDs were constantly being pushed, tweaked, screwed with (as are newer discs, though perhaps a bit less so) often without the filmmaker's involvement. Those frequencies were likely part of the original mix. But - I would assume - it's possible work could have been done with or without Weir to extend those frequencies and create a more LFE heavy mix for the DVD. I expressed the wish we had more definitive information as to what Weir - and other filmmakers - were going for in their mixes, as we here have often been able to find about elements like color or aspect ratio - easier since these are more often discussed by the creative folk involved and more accessible. Sometimes finding that info confirms suspicions that something with a home release is amiss, but other times it undermines them.

RobertR seemed to feel it was absurd to suggest even the possibility that Weir might not have wanted those super low frequencies since they recorded actual cannons to help create the effects, and I was explaining my perspective on how that could easily be the case -- that just because you record real cannons, doesn't automatically mean you decide to keep ultra low frequencies from those cannons when you hear them in the sound mix. Mixes are full of sounds you decide aren't working the way you want.

It ultimately was a somewhat silly and semantic conversation, and I'm sorry I kept going with it. But I feel that when two home video releases differ, without more contextural information, it's impossible to know beyond all doubt which (if either!) is representative of what the filmmaker desired. RobertR strongly disagreed and ultimately any further going back and forth wasn't going to get us anywhere.

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Pathetic strawman. No one ever told anyone not to buy the UHD. Apparently, you feel threatened by someone saying something you don't like. Mentioning that cannons that were recorded live for a movie that prominently features cannons were wimpified compared to a previous release is hardly "obsessing" over cannons. What are you going to claim next, that pointing out the nerfed bass in WOTW is "obsessing" over aliens?

Though, based on your struggle with forum-quoting, this is not a shock.


Yes, that was condescension, and yes, that was also a joke.

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by sidetracked1

ultra low frequencies from those cannons when you hear them in the sound mix.

Since we are talking about infrasonics, which are inaudible by definition, it makes no sense to talk about "hearing" them.

[sidetracked1]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Since we are talking about infrasonics, which are inaudible by definition, it makes no sense to talk about "hearing" them.

As I was just saying... "It ultimately was" (updated: now IS) "a somewhat silly and semantic conversation".

[geomon]

I hear infrasonics all the time. Especially after I eat Taco Bell.

[b0b]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Since we are talking about infrasonics, which are inaudible by definition, it makes no sense to talk about "hearing" them.

It's a commonly held myth that our ears cannot detect sound below 20 Hz, when in fact it's only tonal/pitch perception that ceases around there. See this review of the research on infrasound perception:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ic_frequencies

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by b0b

It's a commonly held myth that our ears cannot detect sound below 20 Hz, when in fact it's only tonal/pitch perception that ceases around there. See this review of the research on infrasound perception:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ic_frequencies

"detection" is not the same as "hearing".

[Sea Hag]

This thread is drowning. I know this message board is inherently niche but it would be cool to get some firsthand impressions of this release from a picture quality standpoint at least.

[Vertizontal]

Originally Posted by sojrner

Yes, that was condescension, and yes, that was also a joke.

Hey - I'm on your side lol, I was suggesting the guy on the personal crusade to make us all as disappointed as he is was the one handing out the free condescension, not you.

I still feel like I shouldn't fully chime in as my copy is in transit, but I'm sure it's going to be a challenge to enjoy now knowing I won't be feeling a few chest tones that my mid tier rig probably wouldn't have produced newayz, the horror, guess not every release is reference material, who knew?! Kidding aside, it still sounds like this is a solid upgrade over the BD overall and I'm really looking forward to experiencing this great flick after several years.