The Little Mermaid 4K UHD (1989) (30th Anniversary Edition)

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by starmike

What's the difference with the LTD DVD 5.1 mix?

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/...opicPost327078

Problems:

The first cause for alarm is that the only English audio mix provided on this disc is the Disney Enhanced for Home Theater (D.E.H.T.) mix. The original, great-sounding mix heard both on the previous laserdisc and DVD is nowhere in sight. I can’t believe that given the dearth of bonus material on Disc 1 that Disney couldn’t have found the bandwidth to include it. And perhaps the omission of the original mix wouldn’t have been such a bad thing had the new DEHT mix not been so troublesome.


The problems with the new mix are two-fold to my ears. One problem is directional… the placement choices of the sound. While most non-musical sequences seem fine in terms of what comes out of what speaker, the musical sequences, which are the heart and soul of the film, have been less tastefully served. Firstly, the lead vocal tracks to each song are duplicated in the front three channels… spreading Ariel’s (or Sabastien’s) voice across the front sound state in a strange, phase-shifting sort of way that I can only imagine was supposed to “enhance” the experience.

rolleyes

During the first song, Ariel’s voice sounds oddly detached and lacks the solid soundstaging and presence of the original mix. The decision to spread her voice over all three front channels dissolves any sense that you’re hearing a point-source of sound… ie: a person singing. Adding to that some overly aggressive placement of instrumentation in the rear channels and the sensation is more like putting a boom-box on your shoulder in a 1980’s MTV video than listening to a soulful aria as the song was intended to portray.

Now, I guess I should be thankful that The Little Mermaid’s DEHT mix didn’t suffer the same fate as that of Aladdin where the clueless mixing engineer decided to place the lead vocalist tracks in the rear surround channels as well. But that’s small consolation given that, unlike Aladdin, the original mix is not presented here as an option.

But now we get to the real problem I have with this new mix. It sounds artificial. And the musical vocal tracks have a dry, flat, electronic signature that’s entirely destroys the lush, vivid, liquid sound quality of the vocal tracks in the original mixes on the laserdisc and DVD. Just how obvious is this problem? Well, it was so obvious to my ears that when first sitting down and skipping to my favorite “Part of Your World” sequence expecting to be showered with musical bliss (picture that old Maxell advertisement) as I have been accustomed to experiencing with the previous DVD and laserdisc, instead I found myself grimacing with disgust and running from the room to dig out my old laserdisc to do some serious A/B comparisons. I had to see if my memory was so in error or if the Disney tech team really are complete and total morons.

Discovered fact: They are morons folks. Allow me to state boldly the plain and simple truth. The techs who cooked up this DEHT mix are nothing but tone-deaf, MP3-listening junkies who wouldn’t know a holographic soundstage if it bit them in the ass. I’ll continue.

So after blowing the dust off of my laserdisc player, I strategically ran cables both directly from the LPCM output and from the RF-output via my AC3 RF modulator so I could easily toggle back and forth between the 2.0 16/44.1 stereo (ProLogic) track on the LD, the 5.1 AC-3 (Dolby Digital) track on the LD, and the new 5.1 Dolby Digital DEHT mix on the new DVD. To make things even more fun, I hooked up my old DVD player so that I could also seamlessly toggle to the 5.1 Dolby Digital mix on the old DVD. Wow. What a deal:

2.0 16/44.1 LPCM (laserdisc)
5.1 DD/AC-3 original mix (laserdisc)
5.1 DD original mix (old DVD)
5.1 DD DEHT mix (new DVD)


After a while I became quite skilled at quickly syncing the various discs up to within a few seconds of each other to enable quick and effective toggling during play. It helped that the laserdisc and original DVD shared the same chapter stops.

So what did I learn in my 2+ hours of source switching?

Firstly, the recording level of both the LPCM and AC3 on the laser is noticeably lower than either of the Dolby tracks on the two DVDs. I found this interesting as one might have assumed that the laser and early DVD shared the same core Dolby Digital compressed soundtrack. They clearly do not. Yes, I adjusted levels to compensate accordingly during my listening session.

The second thing I noticed was that while the “mix” of the 5.1 AC3 on the LD and older DVD sound like they are derived from the same LPCM master, the sound quality of the Dolby Digital on the (original) DVD was much better than the LD's AC3… much more open, natural, and with a richer sense of musical textures and micro-detail like musical decays and ambient “hall”. In fact, the Dolby Digital on the older DVD sounded very close to the fidelity of the 2.0 LPCM laserdisc track in terms of musical naturalness. I was quite impressed (though voices still sounded most natural of all on the laserdisc’s LPCM). The LPCM did present a more believable sense of space and nuance versus the older DVD’s DD track, but the improvement was subtle. Given this only slight improvement in fidelity on the LPCM, I felt that the gains in soundstaging with the discrete 5.1 encoding on the older DVD were a reasonable trade off and out of all the audio mixes the 5.1 DD on the previous DVD emerged as my preferred choice.

The important conclusion was that all three “original” audio presentations did a superb job of faithfully reproducing believable vocals that were lush, natural, and liquidly smooth. The sharp contrast with the dry, flat, almost brassy nature of the vocals on the new DEHT mix in comparison was undeniable. The vocals on the new DVD’s DEHT mix sounded “electronic” in a way that pulled me out of the film during what should have been the most encompassing moments of the story.

My memory had not betrayed me. This new mix really was the problem after all.

Because firstly Disney insists on putting a bastardized mix on this disc that disregards the integrity of the original recording's natural tonal quality and fidelity, and secondly because in doing so they also elected not to provide the original mix as an alternative, I cannot view this DVD presentation of The Little Mermaid as quality effort.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Yeah, somebody told me The Little Mermaid doesn't have a cinema DTS mix. The LaserDisc doesn't even sound like matrixed surround. It sounded crappy, the music that was going to the surrounds, so after five minutes I restarted the movie in stereo (with sub woofer). I want that Limited Edition DVD 5.1 mix that came out before the Diamond Edition. Not sure why nobody bothers syncing these. It only took me about two hours, for an eighty minute movie.

It apparently had DTS, SDDS, and Dolby Digital tracks for its theatrical re-release in 1997, but I don't know how faithful those would have been to the original (which also had a 70mm six-track, for what it's worth).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/...opicPost327078

Seems they're complaining about the SE DVD's mix rather than what's on the Blu-ray or 4K - which is an all-new Dolby Atmos mix.

FWIW the movie wasn't natively 5.1 either, but 4.2 70MM 6-track.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Seems they're complaining about the SE DVD's mix rather than what's on the Blu-ray or 4K - which is an all-new Dolby Atmos mix.

You asked what the difference with the DVD 5.1 was. Comparing the LaserDisc and Atmos mixes gave me a similar impression as his. The voices sound harsher, especially the men.

FWIW the movie wasn't natively 5.1 either, but 4.2 70MM 6-track.

Doesn't matter. You can respectfully recreate a 4.1 mix in 5.1.



Ordered, since no one responded.

[Warm Gun]

Arrived. Back of the box says it has the original aspect ratio of 1.66:1. Is IMDB right with 1.85:1 or should Disney have treated the 4K like Aladdin and opened the picture up more? I liked how that looked.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Arrived. Back of the box says it has the original aspect ratio of 1.66:1. Is IMDB right with 1.85:1 or should Disney have treated the 4K like Aladdin and opened the picture up more? I liked how that looked.

Don't quote me on this, but I think all the CAPS Disney features were animated at 1.66:1 (and the theatrical prints were probably hard-matted at that ratio), but were protected for 1.85:1 since that's what they would be shown at in most theaters.

Blu-rays and UHDs for those features seem to have been a mix of ratios, but I think most split the difference at 1.78:1.

[emailking]

Originally Posted by Dsneybuf

When The Little Mermaid first came to theaters and home video, the end credits played "Part of Your World" sans vocals..
Closing to The Little Mermaid 1990 VHS - YouTube

Why did it get changed?

[Alopex]

So the UK 4K comes with the old Diamond Edition BD correct?

Can anyone please confirm which BD comes with the US version? I only want this release because Disney are even bigger cheapskates in Australia and almost never include Blus with their UHDs, so even though it says signature collection on the US cover, I don't trust Disney to not just stick the Diamond Blu in there anyway and would like some confirmation before I buy.

[Farerb]

Originally Posted by Alopex

So the UK 4K comes with the old Diamond Edition BD correct?

Can anyone please confirm which BD comes with the US version? I only want this release because Disney are even bigger cheapskates in Australia and almost never include Blus with their UHDs, so even though it says signature collection on the US cover, I don't trust Disney to not just stick the Diamond Blu in there anyway and would like some confirmation before I buy.

The US has a new Blu-ray disc with the new master.

[WonkaBedknobs83]

Originally Posted by BNex99

It apparently had DTS, SDDS, and Dolby Digital tracks for its theatrical re-release in 1997, but I don't know how faithful those would have been to the original (which also had a 70mm six-track, for what it's worth).

Doubtful since the 1997 re-release closing credits altered the soundtrack to replace "Under the Sea" and the instrumental opening credits version of Part of That World (with an actual ending for the Buena Vista Distribution credit) with the sung version of the latter.

And the alterations haven't stopped since then. They've replaced the Blue Castle that says "Walt Disney Pictures" with a CGI one that just says "Disney." They've removed the Silver Screen Partners IV (how many of these were there?) credit. I even saw some source that claimed they screwed up the order of two shots during Part of That World.

Why can't they just give us the same dang ol' movie I saw three times in theaters in 1989 that was the first movie we ever took my baby sister to see in a theater? I'm not expecting a Criterion do-over but if they do they will be at the mercy of whatever Disney gives them and the stipulations attached to it. It's the reason I have the original CAV laserdisc despite it being in a modified aspect ratio. The original sound mix still sounded no worse to me 33 years later despite not being presented in a multichannel format as there was no way to do so yet in the home.

And then they have made similar subtle changes to Beauty and the Beast (outside the extra song they go back and forth with like they do with another Angela Lansbury musical from even further back), Aladdin (outside the lyric change), and The Lion King. Funny how they are always referred to as the movies that saved Disney, but they still keep fiddling with them!

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

Doubtful since the 1997 re-release closing credits altered the soundtrack to replace "Under the Sea" and the instrumental opening credits version of Part of That World (with an actual ending for the Buena Vista Distribution credit) with the sung version of the latter.

And the alterations haven't stopped since then. They've replaced the Blue Castle that says "Walt Disney Pictures" with a CGI one that just says "Disney." They've removed the Silver Screen Partners IV (how many of these were there?) credit. I even saw some source that claimed they screwed up the order of two shots during Part of That World.

Why can't they just give us the same dang ol' movie I saw three times in theaters in 1989 that was the first movie we ever took my baby sister to see in a theater? I'm not expecting a Criterion do-over but if they do they will be at the mercy of whatever Disney gives them and the stipulations attached to it. It's the reason I have the original CAV laserdisc despite it being in a modified aspect ratio. The original sound mix still sounded no worse to me 33 years later despite not being presented in a multichannel format as there was no way to do so yet in the home.

And then they have made similar subtle changes to Beauty and the Beast (outside the extra song they go back and forth with like they do with another Angela Lansbury musical from even further back), Aladdin (outside the lyric change), and The Lion King. Funny how they are always referred to as the movies that saved Disney, but they still keep fiddling with them!

The CG Columbia intro sucks, the CG Universal intro sucks and the CG Disney intro certainly sucks. At least Sony and Univeral don't replace the originals, though. Even Warner Brothers stopped.

Finished syncing the audio tracks a few days ago. The Disney intro was a problem. Both the LaserDisc and 1999 DVD obviously have the original intro. With the LaserDisc stereo mix, I simply used the Dolby Digital 5.1 "core" of the Atmos and rendered it in stereo with Reaper, those thirty-something seconds. But when I was working with the Limited Issue DVD 5.1 384 kbps mix, I had to cut the whole thing with MKVToolNix repeatedly, setting the delays in said program with each cut. Think I ended up with four or five pieces. All that because rendering 5.1 is way too complicated in Reaper. What I should have done is simply re-encode the 640 kbps "core" of the intro to 384 kbps in Handbrake and then stick it at the front of the DVD mix. But I was confused by my media player calling the track "5.1(side)," which I thought I couldn't render. So, instead, I set a silent delay over the length of the new intro, for that DVD mix. Turns out all my 5.1 movies say "5.1(side)" after reinstalling Windows. Not sure it's worth the bother to go back now and add the sound. Think I like it better silenced.

Also replaced the crappy thumbnail of human Ariel and the prince sitting in the boat together with the original poster, cropped and resized to standard Blu-ray thumbnail dimensions of 640x360.



One thing I didn't touch on was the probably anemic sound of the Atmos. I didn't really properly listen to it in the last two years. I still say "probably" because that's how I felt about Beauty and the Beast's Atmos mix a few nights ago, and the new mixes are likely made by the same people. I could listen to that mix at two in the morning at almost the same volume that I normally use without any complaints from the neighbors. There's so little in the LFE. That low resolution 5.1 mix of the Limited Issue DVD had more power.

I do prefer the song Part of Your World in the credits over the instrumental. My question is, when was it recorded? Was it part of the CD or did they bring the actress back years later?

[WonkaBedknobs83]

How can an Atmos mix actually be less powerful than a late 1990s DVD? In theory, the opposite should be the case.

I imagine the 70mm blow-ups from the original release must have sounded pretty freakin' sweet.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

Doubtful since the 1997 re-release closing credits altered the soundtrack to replace "Under the Sea" and the instrumental opening credits version of Part of That World (with an actual ending for the Buena Vista Distribution credit) with the sung version of the latter.

And the alterations haven't stopped since then. They've replaced the Blue Castle that says "Walt Disney Pictures" with a CGI one that just says "Disney." They've removed the Silver Screen Partners IV (how many of these were there?) credit. I even saw some source that claimed they screwed up the order of two shots during Part of That World.

Why can't they just give us the same dang ol' movie I saw three times in theaters in 1989 that was the first movie we ever took my baby sister to see in a theater? I'm not expecting a Criterion do-over but if they do they will be at the mercy of whatever Disney gives them and the stipulations attached to it. It's the reason I have the original CAV laserdisc despite it being in a modified aspect ratio. The original sound mix still sounded no worse to me 33 years later despite not being presented in a multichannel format as there was no way to do so yet in the home.

And then they have made similar subtle changes to Beauty and the Beast (outside the extra song they go back and forth with like they do with another Angela Lansbury musical from even further back), Aladdin (outside the lyric change), and The Lion King. Funny how they are always referred to as the movies that saved Disney, but they still keep fiddling with them!

Every time they change something they can (and usually do) renew the copyright.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

How can an Atmos mix actually be less powerful than a late 1990s DVD? In theory, the opposite should be the case.

By designing the Atmos sound for cardboard apartment dwellers. Again, talking about the low frequencies. Like I said earlier, the Atmos does sound fuller.

I imagine the 70mm blow-ups from the original release must have sounded pretty freakin' sweet.

Someone on Fanres told me the 1999 DVD audio is based on the 70 mm. I don't know where they got that information, though.

[PonyoBellanote]

Is there a place for original audio mixed to Blu rays or UHDs? I can't believe some people get better audio than whats available oficially and I can't get it.

[SpazeBlue]

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

Is there a place for original audio mixed to Blu rays or UHDs? I can't believe some people get better audio than whats available oficially and I can't get it.

There's the site Warm Gun mentioned above.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by starmike

Ok, take Star Wars. Three audio versions - Mono, Stereo, 70mm. All three are preserved now. With respect to laserdisc, if there's a mix you want and it's only LD, that's the only way to get it.

The 70mm audio isn't quite preserved. They are not really the original 70mm mixes but I think re-created using stuff from LD which I think was said to be close on some versions, but already somewhat altered, and such and adjusted by hand, etc. A nice effort all the same. One does wish that Lucasfilm would just scan in their pristine 70mm prints and give us the original visuals and audio even if the visuals were only release print sourced image quality and not OCN.

There are cinema DTS preservations of 4-6 SE and 1-3. Cinema DTS is lossy and 16bit though compared to modern home video (physical media) which is usually lossless and 24bit. But with all the tinkering even those more recent films I think all had alterations from the original theatrical soundtracks.

And yeah I think they now have the full original mono and stereo for 4-6 preserved now. Maybe it's not quite all done for all of them yet or a few bits missing.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Yeah, somebody told me The Little Mermaid doesn't have a cinema DTS mix.

Is that correct? I've seen 35mm frames from the re-release that had DTS time codes on them. Also seen some that didn't. It may have had a limited DTS release? Not sure how much they already altered the audio by the time of the re-release though. They already altered the colors.

The LaserDisc doesn't even sound like matrixed surround. It sounded crappy, the music that was going to the surrounds, so after five minutes I restarted the movie in stereo (with sub woofer).

strange since it did get a limited 70mm release in 1989

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

Is that correct? I've seen 35mm frames from the re-release that had DTS time codes on them. Also seen some that didn't. It may have had a limited DTS release? Not sure how much they already altered the audio by the time of the re-release though. They already altered the colors.

No, it's not correct. I misrepresented what they said: that it didn't have a DTS mix originally. Learning that, I thought, "Duh!" I don't even remember any DTS movies before Jurassic Park. If Originaltrilogy does have the 1997 DTS mix, as a Fanres member said in an old post, then it must sound better than either of the audio tracks I worked with.

strange since it did get a limited 70mm release in 1989

I don't know. The LaserDisc just really sounds like stereo, not 2.0 surround, but I could be wrong. Could also be that whoever ripped the LaserDisc audio messed it up. I made sure to check the raw FLAC file to make sure it wasn't my doing.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

Doubtful since the 1997 re-release closing credits altered the soundtrack to replace "Under the Sea" and the instrumental opening credits version of Part of That World (with an actual ending for the Buena Vista Distribution credit) with the sung version of the latter.

The rest of the movie besides the credits was probably relatively faithful. Of course, they could have adjusted levels here and there to take advantage of the digital formats and we'd probably never know.

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

And the alterations haven't stopped since then. They've replaced the Blue Castle that says "Walt Disney Pictures" with a CGI one that just says "Disney." They've removed the Silver Screen Partners IV (how many of these were there?) credit. I even saw some source that claimed they screwed up the order of two shots during Part of That World.

The initial pressings of the Diamond Edition Blu-ray had two shots at the end of "Part Of Your World" accidentally reversed, but they did correct it and offer a replacement at the time. I'm pretty sure it's correct on the UHD, but I imagine there are plenty of uncorrected copies of the old Blu-ray floating around.

Originally Posted by WonkaBedknobs83

And then they have made similar subtle changes to Beauty and the Beast (outside the extra song they go back and forth with like they do with another Angela Lansbury musical from even further back), Aladdin (outside the lyric change), and The Lion King. Funny how they are always referred to as the movies that saved Disney, but they still keep fiddling with them!

True. It's ironic that in recent years, there's been more of a push to restore the full original theatrical versions of the older classics, complete with original RKO or Buena Vista logos and monaural soundtracks. There are exceptions, like the continued absence of Sunflower from FANTASIA, and of course, there's the grain removal that's somewhat controversial. But in terms of the films' content, most of them are pretty intact.

But for whatever reason, it's the four big hits of the Renaissance era that keep getting fiddled with.