Murder by Death (1976) coming from Shout

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by classicmaterial

Hadn't watched this in years and revisited it the other night. So incredibly funny. Peter Falk is amazing in it. I had forgotten how wildly racist it is though. Peter Sellers....wow

I thought Peter Sellers' portrayal in the film may have been an spoofy exaggeration of the Charlie Chan character as written by Earl Biggers, but no. I read a couple of the novels and the source material (in which the detective is not supposed to be an object of fun) is as embarrassingly bad. And those novels themselves were terrible, with lousy romantic subplots constantly interrupting the mystery elements.

[Stanis]

I dont think Sellers was spoofing the books but the series of films, famously played in yellowface by white actors and very popular.

[Mystic]

I think that Peter Sellers in preparation for the role, must have familiarized himself with the source material (both in books and film). The character in the film that he portrays is certainly beyond parody and is a bit over the top to the degree that you can''t take any of it seriously, I suspect that this was intentional and that Sellers was doing this purely for comedic effect. You can certainly see some elements of that approach at work in his portrayal of Inspector Clouseau in the later Pink Panther films.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Stanis

I dont think Sellers was spoofing the books but the series of films, famously played in yellowface by white actors and very popular.

Originally Posted by Mystic

I think that Peter Sellers in preparation for the role, must have familiarized himself with the source material (both in books and film). The character in the film that he portrays is certainly beyond parody and is a bit over the top to the degree that you can''t take any of it seriously, I suspect that this was intentional and that Sellers was doing this purely for comedic effect. You can certainly see some elements of that approach at work in his portrayal of Inspector Clouseau in the later Pink Panther films.

I haven't seen it in years, but this is my question. Is it problematic (and come on, you have to admit that yellowface is problematic) in and of itself or is it a comment on the problematic source material? I've been waiting for a sale to pick up the blu-ray, but I think I might just have to grab it. I'm curious now.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

I haven't seen it in years, but this is my question. Is it problematic (and come on, you have to admit that yellowface is problematic) in and of itself or is it a comment on the problematic source material? I've been waiting for a sale to pick up the blu-ray, but I think I might just have to grab it. I'm curious now.

In my opinion, its not problematic for the reasons that I explained in my previous posts however, I think you need to judge for yourself.

[ravenus]

I don't find it problematic in the same way that I don't have a problem with Peter Sellers in The Party or Apu from The Simpsons (I'm from India btw).

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

I haven't seen it in years, but this is my question. Is it problematic (and come on, you have to admit that yellowface is problematic) in and of itself or is it a comment on the problematic source material? I've been waiting for a sale to pick up the blu-ray, but I think I might just have to grab it. I'm curious now.

With respect to this "issue" there are two separate things to point out.

First, the character that Peter Sellers plays in the film is a parody of Charlie Chan who, traditionally in the old movies, was always played by a white actor while his various sons who assisted him were always played by authentic Asian actors. That aspect is also spoofed here with Richard Narita playing his son and jokes are made based on the fact that Wang is Chinese and his son is Japanese (until it's pointed out he is adopted).

Secondly, for many decades and at the time this film was made it was not seen as that big of a deal for white actors to play non-white characters. Peter Sellers did it often and, in fact, his very last movie had him playing Fu Manchu. Five years after Murder By Death, Peter Ustinov played Charlie Chan in Curse of the Dragon Queen.

I realize that by today's standards it's something that is frowned upon but back then people didn't consider it "racist" for a white actor to do that, it was simply an actor playing a character and wearing makeup to complete the look of the character. These portrayals were not comparable to early 20th century blackface that one would associate with minstrelsy so nobody associated them with the same sort of negative connotations.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Mystic

In my opinion, its not problematic for the reasons that I explained in my previous posts however, I think you need to judge for yourself.

Originally Posted by RCRochester

With respect to this "issue" there are two separate things to point out.

First, the character that Peter Sellers plays in the film is a parody of Charlie Chan who, traditionally in the old movies, was always played by a white actor while his various sons who assisted him were always played by authentic Asian actors. That aspect is also spoofed here with Richard Narita playing his son and jokes are made based on the fact that Wang is Chinese and his son is Japanese (until it's pointed out he is adopted).

I see what you guys are saying, and I really need to see the movie again before commenting specifically. But I will say that's it a really tough one to pull off, trying to parody a racist character/trope without coming off racist. Peter Sellers and Neil Simon might be the ones to do it though.

Originally Posted by RCRochester

Secondly, for many decades and at the time this film was made it was not seen as that big of a deal for white actors to play non-white characters. Peter Sellers did it often and, in fact, his very last movie had him playing Fu Manchu. Five years after Murder By Death, Peter Ustinov played Charlie Chan in Curse of the Dragon Queen.

I realize that by today's standards it's something that is frowned upon but back then people didn't consider it "racist" for a white actor to do that, it was simply an actor playing a character and wearing makeup to complete the look of the character. These portrayals were not comparable to early 20th century blackface that one would associate with minstrelsy so nobody associated them with the same sort of negative connotations.

Yeah, but who do you mean when you say "people" didn't consider it racist? I'll bet if you asked an older Asian person if they considered it racist at the time, they'd tell you a different story. And I'm not trying to sit in judgment over the people who made those movies or enjoyed them. I'm still trying to untangle all the racist, sexist, and even homophobic (I'm gay) stuff rattling around in my mind just from growing up in this society, so I try to be understanding. But I do think it's appropriate to examine why most people thought that way at the time and whose point of view was being neglected. Maybe not that deeply in this particular thread though.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

Yeah, but who do you mean when you say "people" didn't consider it racist? I'll bet if you asked an older Asian person if they considered it racist at the time, they'd tell you a different story.

Don't be so sure: Fox's original Charlie Chan films were hugely popular in China and Hong Kong - so much so that Warner Oland was mobbed by adoring local fans when he visited China in 1935. It probably helped that Chan was always the smartest guy in the room in his films. Christopher Lee was also surprised at how local audiences accepted him as Fu Manchu when shooting The Vengeance of Fu Manchu in Hong Kong (that film was actually a co-production with Hong Kong's Shaw Brothers, who also cast a Chinese actor as Count Dracula for all but the opening scene of their Hammer co-production Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires). It wasn't until Peter Ustinov's turn in the dire spoof Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen that the Chinese American community called for a boycott.

Also, you have to consider that whiteface is also a tradition in Asian cinema - the Liam Neeson role of a Dutch missionary was played by Tetsuro Tamba in the original 1971 version of Silence, many Hong Kong films used non-white actors to play white characters (often buffoonish) and for all the complaints about whitewashing in recent Hollywood films like Ghost in the Shell, you have examples like Ken Watanabe playing Clint Eastwood's role in the Japanese version of Unforgiven and the live action Attack on Titan movies having Western characters played by Japanese actors. It's not just an evil Hollywood issue: most movie making territories cast with their local market in mind.

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Don't be so sure: Fox's original Charlie Chan films were hugely popular in China and Hong Kong - so much so that Warner Oland was mobbed by adoring local fans when he visited China in 1935. It probably helped that Chan was always the smartest guy in the room in his films. Christopher Lee was also surprised at how local audiences accepted him as Fu Manchu when shooting The Vengeance of Fu Manchu in Hong Kong. It wasn't until Peter Ustinov's turn in the dire spoof Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen that the Chinese American community called for a boycott.

Also, you have to consider that whiteface is also a tradition in Asian cinema - the Liam Neeson role of a Dutch missionary was played by Tetsuro Tamba in the original 1971 version of Silence, many Hong Kong films used non-white actors to play white characters (often buffoonish) and for all the complaints about whitewashing in recent Hollywood films like Ghost in the Shell, you have examples like Ken Watanabe playing Clint Eastwood's role in the Japanese version of Unforgiven and the live action Attack on Titan movies having Western characters played by Japanese actors. It's not just an evil Hollywood issue: most movie making territories cast with their local market in mind.

Interesting! Thanks for the info. I remember seeing a bunch of Japanese people interviewed on the street when Ghost in the Shell came out, and none of them had a problem with the casting. There is a power dynamic going on in the US that needs to be considered though, so I'm curious to hear what Asian Americans felt about it specifically.

[Mightythor]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Don't be so sure: Fox's original Charlie Chan films were hugely popular in China and Hong Kong - so much so that Warner Oland was mobbed by adoring local fans when he visited China in 1935. It probably helped that Chan was always the smartest guy in the room in his films. Christopher Lee was also surprised at how local audiences accepted him as Fu Manchu when shooting The Vengeance of Fu Manchu in Hong Kong (that film was actually a co-production with Hong Kong's Shaw Brothers, who also cast a Chinese actor as Count Dracula for all but the opening scene of their Hammer co-production Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires). It wasn't until Peter Ustinov's turn in the dire spoof Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen that the Chinese American community called for a boycott.

Also, you have to consider that whiteface is also a tradition in Asian cinema - the Liam Neeson role of a Dutch missionary was played by Tetsuro Tamba in the original 1971 version of Silence, many Hong Kong films used non-white actors to play white characters (often buffoonish) and for all the complaints about whitewashing in recent Hollywood films like Ghost in the Shell, you have examples like Ken Watanabe playing Clint Eastwood's role in the Japanese version of Unforgiven and the live action Attack on Titan movies having Western characters played by Japanese actors. It's not just an evil Hollywood issue: most movie making territories cast with their local market in mind.

They were probably just desperate for ANY kind of representation. Sonething is better than nothing. They should've cast an Asian in the role. Other than being racist, it looks stupid having people in 'yellow face.'

[captainsolo]

I never thought the character in this film was bad and it is played to accentuate the inherent silliness of the character cliches just like the rest of the close approximations. Sellers has a ball with the role and it seems like this was of the few times onscreen in his later years he was enjoying himself.

I'm only now getting into the original Chan films because I had always heard about the inherent racism-but just in the way I understand people having issues with actors playing a different race-I can totally understand the positive side mentioned above about Chan at the very least being an intelligent character who manages to turn the tables on everyone else-particularly the stronger Warner Oland starring Fox films before they devolved into more forgettable Monogram fare. There's also the Mr. Moto films with Peter Lorre playing a Japanese man-but with intelligence and grace. This section of the wikipedia article I think summarizes both sides of the argument pretty well. Ultimately one should keep an open mind and understand the historical context.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charli..._and_criticism

Fu Manchu is an interesting case because the stories are right out of the insane Yellow Peril fears-yet the character is a brilliant and highly impressive supervillain. As a kid I always heard villains referred to as Fu Manchu-like which made me wonder what the original supervillain was like. Actors played him very well like Lee and Karloff in the derided and censored decades after release Mask of Fu Manchu-however if you can look past the yellow peril nonsense Fu Manchu is one of the great villains and a great character.

[classicmaterial]

I see my comment sparked quite the conversation. I think Rockerclub made a lot of great points about how perhaps white americans didn't have a problem with these depictions at the time but I'm quite sure there were Asians who did, their voices just weren't being heard and it being ok (and, in my opinion, necessary) to call out these things in movies. Never to censor, but always to acknowledge. Just like whenever I watch an 80s sex comedy and there's a date rape scene I think it's important to say "wow that's wrong". It doesn't take away from the enjoyment of the movie but society making it a point to say it's wrong will ensure that these things aren't ever acceptable again. To get past the problem we have to acknowledge it.

[Kakihara]

I'm more bothered by the fact that the reviewer here referred to an Asian CHARACTER (I know Sellers wasn't Asian but his character was) as "an Oriental" because those are current eyes talking, essentially. I see that he deleted that, though.

[jaws3dfan]

Originally Posted by Rockercub

I haven't seen it in years, but this is my question. Is it problematic (and come on, you have to admit that yellowface is problematic) in and of itself or is it a comment on the problematic source material? I've been waiting for a sale to pick up the blu-ray, but I think I might just have to grab it. I'm curious now.

This movie came out 44 years ago and Peter Sellers died 40 years ago, if you want tp play identity politics I suggest going after people who are still alive like Joy Baher from THE VIEW who admits she wore blackface but is still a liberal media darling for some reason

[Rockercub]

Originally Posted by jaws3dfan

This movie came out 44 years ago and Peter Sellers died 40 years ago, if you want tp play identity politics I suggest going after people who are still alive like Joy Baher from THE VIEW who admits she wore blackface but is still a liberal media darling for some reason

Maybe if she wore that in this movie, I would. And I didn't go after Peter Sellers, I simply pointed out that the yellowface was problematic. If you had bothered to read on a bit, you would have seen in a later post that I said, "And I'm not trying to sit in judgment over the people who made those movies or enjoyed them..."

[Luke Dodge748]

Jesus Christ, I can't even escape the Liberal BS Identity Politics on a movie forum...

[albert_m2]

This movie came out 44 years ago and Peter Sellers died 40 years ago, if you want tp play identity politics I suggest going after people who are still alive like Joy Baher from THE VIEW who admits she wore blackface but is still a liberal media darling for some reason

The right wing OWNS "identity politics."

Naturally, a right winger would poorly attempt to associate attack a "liberal" with their own racism.

Jesus Christ, I can't even escape the Liberal BS Identity Politics on a movie forum...

Nope, see above and run along now Karen.

[jaws3dfan]

Originally Posted by albert_m2

The right wing OWNS "identity politics."

Naturally, a right winger would poorly attempt to associate attack a "liberal" with their own racism.



Nope, see above and run along now Karen.

LOL too funny, do you get paid to make jokes?

[albert_m2]

Oh bless your heart.

Now back to the topic.