The Elephant Man (1980)

[DukeTogo84]

Originally Posted by anthonyls

Ummmm, what does are this technical discussion have to do with The Elephant Man?

Yeah, this has topic has turned into something else. A year ago, before the StudioCanal release, if new broke that Criterion was releasing Elephant Man, everyone would have been jumping for joy. Now, it's why no 4K post after post.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And yet I wonder how many people out there actually care for having the proper colour, gamma and white point for SDR? Not to deflect the issue from how horrible HDR is, but most people would run screaming from a D65 white point.

I didn't say you were anti-4K, it's a shout-out to all my homies out there who'd rather that these threads didn't devolve into the usual Criterion hit piece.

I mean... these forums are kind of becoming City Mouse and Country Mouse as far as I can see. I definitely wander over to the UHD threads since a bunch of movies I love are being talked about a lot over there- even though I'm not yet UHD. I used to get irritated with every thread here having the most current post say 'Can't wait for the inevitable UHD!" but at this point us disc buyers are all in the same boat.

And not to derail any further, but I do have a calibration question since that's going around. Do UHD users use their players to play their regular Blu-rays, too, or do you maintain a separate player for that. And if you do use one player for everything do you fiddle with the settings each time you're changing the type of disc you're playing or do you keep your settings fixed?

[tama]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Actually if you read my posts, is exactly what I claim. 4K UHDs look different on different display devices, while Blu-rays don't. Even the cheapest display can properly show Rec.709, Gamma 2.4, and 100nits. Some OLEDs have issues with black crush still on many 4K discs, not so with the Blu-rays. Projectors have issues with most 4K discs due to HDR and tone mapping. LCD have their own issues. It goes on and on.

I quoted your post. You made a direct claim. Only when I asked you to list such titles did you now find it pointless. I don't care what some Sets can't do or what Projection can't do. With proper equipment and LCD/OLED sets that can display appropriate playback there isn't "many UHD disc" outdone by there Blu-ray counterpart.

FYI, I myself own an OLED and there isn't many 4K disc that suffer black crush.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by happydood

And not to derail any further, but I do have a calibration question since that's going around. Do UHD users use their players to play their regular Blu-rays, too, or do you maintain a separate player for that. And if you do use one player for everything do you fiddle with the settings each time you're changing the type of disc you're playing or do you keep your settings fixed?

Personally, I use separate players for my UHDs and Blus/DVDs. Primarily because I have different settings for each input channel.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by happydood

I mean... these forums are kind of becoming City Mouse and Country Mouse as far as I can see. I definitely wander over to the UHD threads since a bunch of movies I love are being talked about a lot over there- even though I'm not yet UHD. I used to get irritated with every thread here having the most current post say 'Can't wait for the inevitable UHD!" but at this point us disc buyers are all in the same boat.

And not to derail any further, but I do have a calibration question since that's going around. Do UHD users use their players to play their regular Blu-rays, too, or do you maintain a separate player for that. And if you do use one player for everything do you fiddle with the settings each time you're changing the type of disc you're playing or do you keep your settings fixed?

All 4K players will play back your Blu-rays and DVDs just fine. There's no need for a separate player at all, though I've got three because I do loads of BD vs UHD comparisons for my 4K reviews and it's handy to be able to instantly refer to another source.

As for SDR and HDR, I keep a different 'scene select' for each that's already been calibrated for that content, so I just switch to whichever one I need and it literally takes five seconds to do. On some TVs you don't even need to do that as they'll store settings independently for SDR and HDR, so when you play HDR the TV detects the metadata and switches into the appropriate mode.

And I am sorry for the 4K diversion, folks. But with Elephant Man in particular already having a 4K UHD derived from this new transfer then this topic is going to be keenly contested more than most recent Criterion threads - not that Criterion could actually do anything about it even if they wanted to as Paramount are apparently not licensing UHDs right now. Oh, sweet irony.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by tama

I quoted your post. You made a direct claim. Only when I asked you to list such titles did you now find it pointless. I don't care what some Sets can't do or what Projection can't do. With proper equipment and LCD/OLED sets that can display appropriate playback there isn't "many UHD disc" outdone by there Blu-ray counterpart.

FYI, I myself own an OLED and there isn't many 4K disc that suffer black crush.

I said, "There are many 4K UHD releases where the Blu-ray looks better (when done from the same 4K master).", and I already replied to that twice. A list you want doesn't exist, as I said before, it's display dependent, and therein lies the problem. Too much variance from display to display when watching 4K UHD compared to Blu-rays. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand TBH...

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by happydood

I mean... these forums are kind of becoming City Mouse and Country Mouse as far as I can see. I definitely wander over to the UHD threads since a bunch of movies I love are being talked about a lot over there- even though I'm not yet UHD. I used to get irritated with every thread here having the most current post say 'Can't wait for the inevitable UHD!" but at this point us disc buyers are all in the same boat.

And not to derail any further, but I do have a calibration question since that's going around. Do UHD users use their players to play their regular Blu-rays, too, or do you maintain a separate player for that. And if you do use one player for everything do you fiddle with the settings each time you're changing the type of disc you're playing or do you keep your settings fixed?

I don't touch the settings on my Panasonic 820 players - I set them initially and that's that. I have two for comparisons (and also for insurance if a player dies and/or is no longer sold). The TV takes care of SDR vs HDR/DV, as each input has settings for that format.

[drat]

This 4K debate doesn't Merrick any further discussion on The Elephant Man thread.

Did you see what I did there?

[tama]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I said, "There are many 4K UHD releases where the Blu-ray looks better (when done from the same 4K master).", and I already replied to that twice. A list you want doesn't exist, as I said before, it's display dependent, and therein lies the problem. Too much variance from display to display when watching 4K UHD compared to Blu-rays. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand TBH...

And I challenged that. I also don't understand what's so hard about that because your statement is factually incorrect. I have enough disk (UHD/BD) at my disposable for this. You made a specific statement so I asked you to list such examples of films where the BD outperforms the UHD versions. You haven't. My points been made.

[evanft]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I said, "There are many 4K UHD releases where the Blu-ray looks better (when done from the same 4K master).", and I already replied to that twice. A list you want doesn't exist, as I said before, it's display dependent, and therein lies the problem. Too much variance from display to display when watching 4K UHD compared to Blu-rays. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand TBH...

List them.

[amarster]

I welcome this release by Criterion. I didn't get the 4k cause I can only watch region A blu's (features disc), so I am all in!

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by tama

And I challenged that. I also don't understand what's so hard about that because your statement is factually incorrect. I have enough disk (UHD/BD) at my disposable for this. You made a specific statement so I asked you to list such examples of films where the BD outperforms the UHD versions. You haven't. My points been made.

I can only list the titles that don't looks as good on my display. But you don't seem to care to understand about the topic, you just want to be right about something, and will of course debate things. So there's no point.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by tama

And I challenged that. I also don't understand what's so hard about that because your statement is factually incorrect. I have enough disk (UHD/BD) at my disposable for this. You made a specific statement so I asked you to list such examples of films where the BD outperforms the UHD versions. You haven't. My points been made.

Yes, your point is made, all the UHDs on your set are superior to the Blu-ray.

The problem is, that's not the point.

Lee Kline at Criterion is not concerned with how HDR appears on your set, and for that matter, neither is anyone else. Everyone else is concerned on how it looks on their set.

Except Lee Kline.

Lee Kline is concerned with the fact there are considerable variances across the spectrum when it comes to UHD as a determination of whether or not the benefits, in this case specific to the optimal presentation of the film, outweigh the risk.

As far as examples, you must be joking, as this site is full of posters citing that the implementation of HDR on their TV or projector made the image too dark and the Blu provided a superior viewing experience.

The bottom line, once again, is that what may be subjectively superior to some, i.e., HDR, may be highly problematic to the core Criterion audience who believe the image simply appears too different, distracting or inferior.

And that's a problem.

As shocking as it may be, there is a very large audience for whom overall consistency with prior presentations, distinct from restoration, is more important and valuable than an objectively superior presentation.

[Nori]

There are always variations. Different people with different sets have different calibrations so colors may appear different, also different base brightness setting and different contrast levels, all altering to some degree the experience. With HDR people have tv’s with different nits and maybe HDR10 or Dolby Vision, but ultimately they still get a superior picture in my experience. There are of course exceptions where the 4ks are completely messed up like with Good fellas (way too dark), or where DNR still gets used heavily like in Terminator 2, but generally these are rare cases.

I absolutely love Criterion and I understand why they took a long time but now they should really get into 4K sooner than later in my opinion.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Lee Kline is concerned with the fact there are considerable variances across the spectrum when it comes to UHD as a determination of whether or not the benefits, in this case specific to the optimal presentation of the film, outweigh the risk.

Could you cite a podcast, interview, etc. where Lee Kline expressed this? He’s never mentioned anything remotely along those lines about UHD/HDR in anything I’ve read or listened to.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I can only list the titles that don't looks as good on my display. But you don't seem to care to understand about the topic, you just want to be right about something, and will of course debate things. So there's no point.

Which Clown College did you go to? I need to know where I shouldn't send my kids!

[sfmarine]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Personally, I use separate players for my UHDs and Blus/DVDs. Primarily because I have different settings for each input channel.

I am glad I'm not the only one that does this.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Could you cite a podcast, interview, etc. where Lee Kline expressed this? He’s never mentioned anything remotely along those lines about UHD/HDR in anything I’ve read or listened to.

Would also love to hear where Mr Kline has mentioned this as a viable concern. I get the impression that he's very blasé about what HDR actually offers - having told the story in the podcast about doing an HDR pass on a Coen brothers film only for them to go 'meh' having seen it, and also told the story about Soderbergh gently nudging the HDR on Sex, Lies... rather than turning it into the kind of Light Cannon™ grade that the overriding public perception of HDR seems to be - and then he goes on to say that 4K would only have a benefit on a projektor anyway!

He's talking purely about resolution and not range but that's very revealing in itself, for if he was in any way concerned about HDR tone mapping then playing it on a projektor would be at the top of the list. He then goes on to justify not releasing stuff in 4K because those using projektors are in the tiniest minority of Criterion buyers, which runs totally contrary to them holding back on it just in case PJ types would be badly disadvantaged by the HDR snafu. He's saying they're holding back 4K because there aren't ENOUGH projektor owners out there to take advantage of what he perceives to be the main benefits.

Again: I think people are giving them far too much credit here.

[nitin]

Remember, and I say this as someone who nevertheless has hundreds of Criterion discs, they were pictureboxing dvds until the late 2000s...!!!

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Would also love to hear where Mr Kline has mentioned this as a viable concern. I get the impression that he's very blasé about what HDR actually offers - having told the story in the podcast about doing an HDR pass on a Coen brothers film only for them to go 'meh' having seen it, and also told the story about Soderbergh gently nudging the HDR on Sex, Lies... rather than turning it into the kind of Light Cannon™ grade that the overriding public perception of HDR seems to be - and then he goes on to say that 4K would only have a benefit on a projektor anyway!

He's talking purely about resolution and not range but that's very revealing in itself, for if he was in any way concerned about HDR tone mapping then playing it on a projektor would be at the top of the list. He then goes on to justify not releasing stuff in 4K because those using projektors are in the tiniest minority of Criterion buyers, which runs totally contrary to them holding back on it just in case PJ types would be badly disadvantaged by the HDR snafu. He's saying they're holding back 4K because there aren't ENOUGH projektor owners out there to take advantage of what he perceives to be the main benefits.

Again: I think people are giving them far too much credit here.

Hey Geoff - is this all in the "Team Deakins" podcast? I have it in my queue to listen to, just haven't gotten to it yet.