Fantasia / Fantasia 2000 (1940-1999) (Special Edition)

[Cradle Of Fish]

I can't believe that a billion dollar company is still afraid of the "politically correct" folks. Disney, stop being scardey cats and release the movie uncensored already. I want a high quality black centaur "slaves" version. The REAL version of the movie as do hundreds and thousands of other do. For that matter release Song Of The South and the other "censored" Disney toons. Racial stereotypes was something in the past it is history and needs to be seen! Warner Bros. should releases their "banned" toons as well. My opinion of course.

[Penglynns]

Originally Posted by EricJ

(For future reference, what about the big World of Disney store over at the shopping section, that sells videos too?)

How about Disney sells their movies for full MSRP in the parks - over $35, maybe over $40 for Fantasia - I didn't even look for it. Other Bluray packs I saw, such as Beaty and the Beast, were over $35.

That's why.

[ArmyOfDarknessAW]

Originally Posted by Penglynns

How about Disney sells their movies for full MSRP in the parks - over $35, maybe over $40 for Fantasia - I didn't even look for it. Other Bluray packs I saw, such as Beaty and the Beast, were over $35.

That's why.

Yeah it pretty crazy that you can always get Disney movies for so cheap due to promotions and coupons but they charge a ton for them. I always found any Disney store to be too expensive I guess that's why my local one closed.

[Chaotic]

yeah it was a little long, but i really loved the animation.

[DVD Phreak]

Maybe Ernest Rister could shed some light on this. This IMDB poster claims that in the "Rite of Spring" segment there should be additional scenes after the amphibian creature emerges from the water surface. Any truth to that? It certainly piques my interest.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I think it's more of a difference between "the way it was meant to be heard" than "clearer". The mono was a compromise to get it wide-released by RKO. Walt always intended it to be heard in Fantasound, and the stereo came closest to that. DVD let us hear it in multichannel for the first time at home, and now with the Blu-ray it's finally lossless multichannel.

The problem is that the mix that Walt intended no longer exists. We have a surround mix, but it's what some anonymous current sound engineer intends, not Walt. The mono mix at least was approved by the original filmmakers.

What Disney is doing is not restoration. They aren't returning the film to the way it originally looked and sounded. They are recreating it into a new thing that is quite different. Modern technology is great, but this isn't the way Walt intended.

[bluhunter]

Originally Posted by bigshot

I am an animation art conservator and restorer. I've seen hundreds of Fantasia cels and backgrounds. The colors in some sequences are nothing like the original art.

I could be wrong but the original art should only be used as a mere guide since the colors printed on film are not exactly the same found in the original art. And, having read several books about this, I know they would adjust colors used in cells and background art by taking into account how these would render on film in order to get the intended hues they wanted to appear on the screen.

[miniroll32]

Originally Posted by bluhunter

I could be wrong but the original art should only be used as a mere guide since the colors printed on film are not exactly the same found in the original art. And, having read several books about this, I know they would adjust colors used in cells and background art by taking into account how these would render on film in order to get the intended hues they wanted to appear on the screen.

Technicolor in 1940 was extremely volatile [as a chemical]. It enhanced the brightness of most hues, and as such, the new restorations reflect this since Lowry were able to re-create the chemical balance found on original film strips. Its a pity more people don't realise this before ranting away - Amazon seems to be the worst for this!

[miniroll32]

Originally Posted by DVDave

I agree. It's not like I had remembered. I actually thought about breaking out my old laserdisc box set and firing it up.

For the final time...

The restoration was done in the original RGB colour timing. Not the CYMK prints of older releases.

[Penglynns]

Anyone have playback issues with either disc? We put in disc 2 to watch Destino first and the previews play and the menu screen loads, but when we select anything from the menu screen it just sits on black and doesn't play past that. The first disc loads and will play when the movie is selected. I haven't had a chance to try all the special features yet. Haven't had problems with any other Blu recently and my firmware is updated as current as I can tell (LG BD953 HTIB). If nobody else has had an issue I'll take it back and swap it for another and hope it was just a bad disc.

[supersonic395]

Originally Posted by Cradle Of Fish

I can't believe that a billion dollar company is still afraid of the "politically correct" folks. Disney, stop being scardey cats and release the movie uncensored already. I want a high quality black centaur "slaves" version. The REAL version of the movie as do hundreds and thousands of other do. For that matter release Song Of The South and the other "censored" Disney toons. Racial stereotypes was something in the past it is history and needs to be seen! Warner Bros. should releases their "banned" toons as well. My opinion of course.

I think that "hundreds and thousands" statement is a gross overestimate.

Walt Disney himself altered the sequence. And he didn't do it in 2010, he did in the 60's.

I'm not sure why having the black slave centaur in high quality = the REAL version of the movie, but if that's what you're aching to watch then it really says something darkly unpleasant about you.

Miniroll is correct.

[tomrule123]

Originally Posted by Penglynns

Anyone have playback issues with either disc? We put in disc 2 to watch Destino first and the previews play and the menu screen loads, but when we select anything from the menu screen it just sits on black and doesn't play past that. The first disc loads and will play when the movie is selected. I haven't had a chance to try all the special features yet. Haven't had problems with any other Blu recently and my firmware is updated as current as I can tell (LG BD953 HTIB). If nobody else has had an issue I'll take it back and swap it for another and hope it was just a bad disc.

I actually have the same Blu-ray player model. I'm going to check on this myself.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by bluhunter

I could be wrong but the original art should only be used as a mere guide since the colors printed on film are not exactly the same found in the original art.

I've seen original cels and backgrounds, seen the films in IB Tech prints and own all of the various video releases. There is an overall similarity of palette between the original art and the Technicolor film prints. There's no relationship between the color balances of the videos and the Technicolor film prints. The early laserdiscs were the closest, and they've strayed further and further each time. In Fantasia, the only sequences with truly accurate colors are Dance of the Hours and Sorcerer's Apprentice (with the exception of some of the yellows). Bald Mountain and Ave Maria are close. Toccata and Nutcracker are the furthest off. I suspect that the film was color corrected sequence by sequence by different people. The preview of Alice looks very good. Maybe they're paying more attention to color now.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by supersonic395

I'm not sure why having the black slave centaur in high quality = the REAL version of the movie, but if that's what you're aching to watch then it really says something darkly unpleasant about you.

it isn't a slave. It's a pickininny. Black children tied their hair up with bits of cloth back in the early part of the 20th century. And many black children during the depression made money on the street shining shoes. There's nothing wrong with it if you know the context. The problem is that most modern kids don't know what they're looking at.

[supersonic395]

Originally Posted by bigshot

it isn't a slave. It's a pickininny. Black children tied their hair up with bits of cloth back in the early part of the 20th century. And many black children during the depression made money on the street shining shoes. There's nothing wrong with it if you know the context. The problem is that most modern kids don't know what they're looking at.

Pickaninny normally refers (referred) to racially stereotyped children of black slaves (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nny_Freeze.jpg)

Of course, I'm sure you were around in and retain good memories from say the 1850s all the way through to today and yeah, nothing wrong with it eh.

In the context and time "n*****" was ok too. Today we don't know what it means right? Right? Pfft.

It's easy to label sound engineers/mixers as being "anonymous" and "changing it into a new thing" and "Walt intended this and didn't intend that" YET Walt himself had the sequence altered and intended for it to be altered, but now it's ok to bring Walt's decision/intention into contention?

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by supersonic395

Walt Disney himself altered the sequence. And he didn't do it in 2010, he did in the 60's.
I'm not sure why having the black slave centaur in high quality = the REAL version of the movie, but if that's what you're aching to watch then it really says something darkly unpleasant about you.
Miniroll is correct.

Just finished watching "The Boys", and there's a great quote about Walt vs. PL Travers' constant objections to "Mary Poppins":
Travers wasn't exactly a ray of sunshine herself; there'd been a pitched battle over whether she'd hand over the book rights to begin with, and even after she did, there was nothing about Walt or Julie's version she agreed with, and her complaints were a pompous bore to listen to.
When she attended the movie premiere, she met Walt in the lobby to register a few more objections, but according to the story, Walt wearily replied "Pamela...the ship has sailed."

...Maybe it was that I was still watching the Fantasia Blu at the time, but for some reason, one of the first things that sprang to mind hearing that quote was the Sunflower controversy:
There IS no more black centaurette, Bacchus' carpet now rolls up by itself through the miracle of digital alteration, and the Ship Sails On.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

So I just finished F2000. Brilliant. The Respighi/Whales, the Shostakovich/Tin Soldier

"Piano Concerto #2" is my least favorite segments of any of the Fantasia sequences, because it simply does not fit the character of the music. Hendel Butoy found some old Walt-era storyboards for Anderson's "Steadfast Tin Soldier" in the archives. Roy had sent out a CD of possible music to use in F2k, and Hendel thought the boards he had just found might fit the Shostakovich piece on the CD. Just as his uncle stumbled badly when trying to find music that would fit early work on "Cydalise" (it became the much-criticized Pastoral sequence), Roy and Hendel repeated the same mistake in F2k. The visuals are supposed to be coming from the character of the music. When the music is used for mere underscore for pre-boarded art, it is a violation of the Fantasia experiment. The two should be one.

The Shostakovich is full of staccato tones from the piano, and something's wrong when you're watching a Fantasia sequence and you hear all these sharp, staccato sounds, and the only image on the screen is a CGI toy turning his head to look around.

Supervising Animator Darrin Butts spoke about the difficulty with the piece. There was a shot in the film where the Evil Jack o'Lantern glares at the Tin Soldier. "The animation just wasn't working," Butts said. "Every scene had to be a certain length because of the music. We sat down with Hendel and talked about how to address the shot. If you say, 'I need an extra three frames to sell this attitude', where is it going to come from when the music is timed so close? The music had obvious accents, but to really make the scene work, I had to find my own accents." [Culhane, Fantasia/2000: Visions of Hope; p. 89].

In other words, ignore the accents of the music, in order to sell the animation and the story. Music takes a back seat and becomes an underscore for an otherwise silent movie. That's not Fantasia, at least, it falls far short of the stated premise behind the experiment.

Oh, and do you know why they choose the Shostakovich for the sequence? Because it was Abby's Bounce-Bounce music.

Yes. That's right. Abby's Bounce-Bounce music. Abigail Disney is Roy's daughter. When she was one and a half, Roy would bounce her on his knee while playing the record. That's why it was on Roy's CD of possible music to use for F2k when Hendel ran across the Steadfast Tin Soldier boards. They ran the boards with Abby's Bounce-Bounce music and were pleased with the concept...you know the rest.

the Stravinsky/Firebird, and of course the Gershwin/Hirschfeld are all absolutely brilliant pieces.

And isn't it funny that "Rhapsody in Blue" wasn't even produced to be part of Fantasia? It was planned as a stand-alone short.

I could pass on the Beethoven. But I really do feel that [F2k] is the superior outing. As for it being "childish" while F40 is "adult" - really? Dancing hippos are "adult"?

A child sees Fantasia and sees dancing hippos. An adult sees the same piece of animation and sees an absurdist satire of ballet cliches.

Destino, on the other hand, was mostly just disturbing. It reminded me of Aeon Flux (and that is in no way a good thing), and the music was terrible. Really bad fidelity, and completely unsuited to the rest of the pieces, in my opinion. I'm glad it got cut.

It didn't "get cut", it was never part of any Fantasia film. The "fidelity" was from a mono demo recorded at the studio and found on (I think slate), it was never intended to be used as the actual underscore. Despite the terrible audio quality, the director of the short decided to go with it because it was what Dali used for inspiration for the piece and as he said, there was no way anyone was going to be able to replicate the performance heard on the demo record.

I'll revisit F2000 fairly often. I'll break out F40 once or twice more in my life, probably.

Your loss.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by bigshot

I've seen original cels and backgrounds

Irrelevant, as these were intended to be shot and lit under camera and color timed in the lab for the final projected result. You can shoot a brown flat and have it turn out purple on film if you want to, you are making a grave error if you think the colors of cels and backgrounds were the actual intended look of the film. You don't have to take my word for it, even, you can see a whole wall of Snow White technicolor correction and color timing information in the background of the "Hyperion tour" of the Snow White Blu-Ray. They illustrate a cel setup, and how that same setup looks shot and timed in various ways.

...I've seen the films in IB Tech prints and own all of the various video releases.

Again, irrelevant - the video releases were based on the YCM restoration, and as demonstrated by the good people who restored the film, both the YCM and the intermediates over the many years obscured and darkened the image - so dark, you can't even see the faint outlines of flowers in the far distant background of the opening shot of the Nutcracker in the 1990 version. Surely you aren't suggesting THAT is the intended look of the film.

There is an overall similarity of palette between the original art and the Technicolor film prints. There's no relationship between the color balances of the videos and the Technicolor film prints.

Do you own one of these prints? Because Fantasia hasn't had a major reissue in 20 years, and I am assuming you are not making your claims based on twenty year old memories.

The early laserdiscs were the closest...

Yes, the closest to the last time Fantasia was released theatrically, because that was the 1990 YCM restoration, and the laserdisc (wait for it) used interpositives of the 1990 version as its source. Of course they looked the same, it was the same version of the movie.

In Fantasia, the only sequences with truly accurate colors are Dance of the Hours and Sorcerer's Apprentice (with the exception of some of the yellows). Bald Mountain and Ave Maria are close.

Bald Mountain is almost radical in its color correction from the 1990 YCM version. I was shouting with excited discovery every other shot.

Toccata and Nutcracker are the furthest off.

Yes, because now you can actually see the artwork in the background of shots that you couldn't see in the 1990 version, because that version was far too dark.

The preview of Alice looks very good. Maybe they're paying more attention to color now.

Maybe you think that colors that match your old VHS tapes and laserdiscs from the late 80's and early 90's are the actual colors intended to be seen in these films, some of which are over 60 years old. If so, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. Then again, I also recognize Fantasia has never looked this sharp, or thanks to Blu-Ray, the colors more vivd. I'm not saying the Blu-Ray is exactly how Fantasia looked in 1940, but it seems reasonable that the Blu-Ray is more in line with what was shot in 1940 than the seven generations of interediates and dupes becoming increasingly dark and fuzzy, and a 1990 YCM restoration that used black to obscure cell dust and cel scrawl and other production "noise" - that's not the intended look of this film, either.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Oh, and do you know why they choose the Shostakovich for the sequence? Because it was Abby's Bounce-Bounce music.
Yes. That's right. Abby's Bounce-Bounce music. They ran the boards with Abby's Bounce-Bounce music and were pleased with the concept...you know the rest.

Yes: The toy soldiers got up and bounce-bounced in tune with the sudden military cadence of the piano, the ballerina danced in tune with the smooth allegro of the piano, and now you can't think of anything else.

(Sorry, but gotta go to the judges on this one, and ruling sez, it worked. )

A child sees Fantasia and sees dancing hippos. An adult sees the same piece of animation and sees an absurdist satire of ballet cliches.

Or as Walt put it, the hippos and ostriches had to be making an earnest effort at serious ballet, or "they'd just come off as a bunch of smartalecks".
It's funnier when the ostrich doesn't mean to fall on her rump (with sound effect), or the hippo didn't mean to flatten the alligator under her grand jette'.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by EricJ

I suspect it has more to do with their old traumas of thinking that F40 has more "reputation" than audience love (we like it now, but it had a white-elephant image back in the 60's)--coupled with the equal inferiority complex that "nobody wants to buy" F2K, which is why they're packaging it together in the first place--that it's always been sold as a distant, out of reach item that generates sales hype from its very elusiveness, as with its first VHS back in '90.

But I'd still expect to see some single disks a year later during an animation promotion.

The Fantasia Anthology was available for years before it went out of print. No 16 weeks gimmick. No "the final release of the original masterpiece" ad campaign. When did it come out? Fall 2000? I think it went out of print sometime in 2003. If it was trying to generate sales by being elusive, it was doing a poor job of it on that shelf at Wal Mart in 2002.