Pioneer 9G Owners Thread - Present & Future

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by fuwa

I turned the 24fps off on my Sony blu-ray and the pans appeared smoother on the screen. Although 24fps is suppose to be film like and smooth, the 60fps appears better when I use it.

If you turn off the 24fps on your blu-ray, it sends 60fps to the Kuro and it does a 3:2 pulldown whereas if you send the 24fps it is 3:3, the 72hz processes the 24fps.

I believe the system is designed for the blu ray to send 1080/24P to the Kuro so it can process the video using 72 hz. The 24P is suppose to be the best way to view film material so why don't doesn't it appear as smooth as the 60 hz?

Do you have Film Mode-Advance feature on your Pioneer tv? Make sure it's set to Advance. Also is the bd player set to "Source Direct" ? Make sure that bd player's 1080p/24 setting is set to 'Auto'

Settings:

Set the tv to Film Mode-Advance

bd player settings:
Source Direct
1080p/24 - Auto
Color Space - Auto

[Alkaline]

Originally Posted by fuwa

I believe the system is designed for the blu ray to send 1080/24P to the Kuro so it can process the video using 72 hz. The 24P is suppose to be the best way to view film material so why don't doesn't it appear as smooth as the 60 hz?

The key here isn't "smoothest" but "most film-like". 72hz coupled with 1080p/24 input replicates the theatrical look of 24fps film. Notice also how camera pans when viewing films in the theater look quite "juttery"--it's due to the relatively low (24) fps. It's not so much about the smoothest motion, just replicating the distinct film "look" that many people prefer when watching movies. It's ultimately about what looks best to you.

[fuwa]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

Do you have Film Mode-Advance feature on your Pioneer tv? Make sure it's set to Advance. Also is the bd player set to "Source Direct" ? Make sure that bd player's 1080p/24 setting is set to 'Auto'

Settings:

Set the tv to Film Mode-Advance

bd player settings:
Source Direct
1080p/24 - Auto
Color Space - Auto

I have the Film Mode set to Advance. The blu-ray is is set to 1080/24p Auto. The Sony BX-2 that I bought at Costco does not have a "source direct" setting in the menu.

I use the settings on the Kuro that are posted on reviews such as D-Nice, UltimateAV, and C-Net.

I am thinking that the picture I see is normal for films or that the Sony needs some other setting. The Pioneer appears to be set correctly.

[fuwa]

Originally Posted by Alkaline

The key here isn't "smoothest" but "most film-like". 72hz coupled with 1080p/24 input replicates the theatrical look of 24fps film. Notice also how camera pans when viewing films in the theater look quite "juttery"--it's due to the relatively low (24) fps. It's not so much about the smoothest motion, just replicating the distinct film "look" that many people prefer when watching movies. It's ultimately about what looks best to you.

This makes sense. I think I will stick with the 24 fps as that is what the film maker intended even though using the blu-ray with the 24 fps off appears "smoother".

[snsguy]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

I share a single family house with a friend. My internet is direct cable with a desktop computer, my friend uses a wireless laptop, both on Comcast. When we're both online at the sametime it is drastically slower. It's almost like I'm on a 56k modem.



I'm not familiar or sure what you mean with your bluray situation. Do you have your bluray plugged into the internet with ethernet and use it to download and stream movies from Netflix? I've never done that. I prefer to watch all bluray movies with the actual disc which always produces a superior PQ and always get the actual 1080p/24 HD native content compared to streaming online content.

No it has nothing to do with streaming. In the Kuro's menu under pro adjust it has the two options, among all the others, that say IP mode 1 2 3 and Drive mode 1 2 3. They both state that they have to do with motion , still image and scrolling text and both are used when viewing blu's and cable. I was just wondering which settings were best when viewing blu's and cable?

SNSGUY

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by fuwa

This makes sense. I think I will stick with the 24 fps as that is what the film maker intended even though using the blu-ray with the 24 fps off appears "smoother".

Turning on 24p Conversion and using 1080p will force the player to switch to 24Hz when encountering a 24Hz signal.

Turning off 24p Conversion and using 1080p will force the player to output 60Hz regardless of the original signal frequency.

Setting the player to Source Direct will cause the player to output in the resolution and frequency of the source. This can be anywhere between 480i/60Hz (DVD), 480p/60Hz (Blu-ray extras), 720p/60Hz (Blu-ray Main Feature or Trailers), 1080i/60Hz (Blu-ray, particularly concerts) and 1080p/24Hz (Blu-ray Main Feature).

This is the reason why source direct for me is the best way. I am a purest for the most part.

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by snsguy

No it has nothing to do with streaming. In the Kuro's menu under pro adjust it has the two options, among all the others, that say IP mode 1 2 3 and Drive mode 1 2 3. They both state that they have to do with motion , still image and scrolling text and both are used when viewing blu's and cable. I was just wondering which settings were best when viewing blu's and cable?

SNSGUY

Mine were set to.

2 standard
mode 1

[oppopioneer]

Originally Posted by ShockWave

Mine were set to.

2 standard
mode 1

So your IP mode is set to "2 Standard" and your Drive Mode is set to 'Mode 1' ?

I just checked my tv, all I could find is the IP Mode, it's set to: IP Mode 2. Where do I find the Drive Mode?

I have the Pio Elite Pro-151FD. Would it be the same for mine too?

[oppopioneer]

I got a message someone sent asking me for some advice on how to set up his PS3 with his Pio 141FD, I don't own a PS3 so I was hoping you guys could answer his questions that I will forward here. His question is below:

quote:"Hey i read some of your comments in the 9g thread.....i have the 141fd 60 inch and a ps3.....i went thru my ps3 settings and there isnt any setting i see to change to source direct. Any suggestions?
Am i correct in saying i should set the tv to advance and the BD player 24fps to off?" end quote.

Any suggestions?

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

So your IP mode is set to "2 Standard" and your Drive Mode is set to 'Mode 1' ?

I just checked my tv, all I could find is the IP Mode, it's set to: IP Mode 2. Where do I find the Drive Mode?

I have the Pio Elite Pro-151FD. Would it be the same for mine too?

This is what I dug up on Drive mode. Seems it's for European users whose video source is 50hz. Or for North American users who watch imported movies.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/8021357-post1663.html

Could not find anything on IP mode. And to be honest I never see people post this setting when they post thier isf reports. Ip mode can be found in

Picture/proadjust/look at the bottom will be next to drive mode. Not sure on the 151.

[scweb13]

From the KRP manual - 5.3.10 Adjust Color Signals

I-P Mode (provides optimum conversion from interlace signals to progressive signals)
1 (Motion) - optimizes video images
2 (Standard) - standard setting
3 (Still) - optimizes still images

Drive Mode (switches image display frequency)
1 - standard setting
2 - enhances readability for horizontally scrolling text
3 - optimizes movie content

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

I got a message someone sent asking me for some advice on how to set up his PS3 with his Pio 141FD, I don't own a PS3 so I was hoping you guys could answer his questions that I will forward here. His question is below:

quote:"Hey i read some of your comments in the 9g thread.....i have the 141fd 60 inch and a ps3.....i went thru my ps3 settings and there isnt any setting i see to change to source direct. Any suggestions?
Am i correct in saying i should set the tv to advance and the BD player 24fps to off?" end quote.

Any suggestions?

Like posted above.

Turning on 24p Conversion and using 1080p will force the player to switch to 24Hz when encountering a 24Hz signal.

Turning off 24p Conversion and using 1080p will force the player to output 60Hz regardless of the original signal frequency

I leave mine on so the advanced in pure cinema can convert it to 72hz. There is a ps3 picture setting thread under players. They may have a better choice.

[scweb13]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

I got a message someone sent asking me for some advice on how to set up his PS3 with his Pio 141FD, I don't own a PS3 so I was hoping you guys could answer his questions that I will forward here. His question is below:

quote:"Hey i read some of your comments in the 9g thread.....i have the 141fd 60 inch and a ps3.....i went thru my ps3 settings and there isnt any setting i see to change to source direct. Any suggestions?
Am i correct in saying i should set the tv to advance and the BD player 24fps to off?" end quote.

Any suggestions?

It either does 24p or not. I don't think there is a source direct option.
If they want the 141 to play back the signal at 72hz, they need to leave the 24p option on, otherwise it will be displayed at 60hz. The KRP manual states that Film Mode - Advance is "not available for input signals 1080p@60hz" and that it "converts theatre-quality DVD images to 72hz"

[oppopioneer]

Do any of you know where IP mode should be set to for best PQ?

[scweb13]

All the recommended settings that I've ever seen, it's been set at standard.

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by scweb13

From the KRP manual - 5.3.10 Adjust Color Signals

I-P Mode (provides optimum conversion from interlace signals to progressive signals)
1 (Motion) - optimizes video images
2 (Standard) - standard setting
3 (Still) - optimizes still images

Drive Mode (switches image display frequency)
1 - standard setting
2 - enhances readability for horizontally scrolling text
3 - optimizes movie content

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

Do any of you know where IP mode should be set to for best PQ?

I just contacted my calibrator and asked him what my IP was set to. I assumed it was the same as my pure mode which I posted earlier. Since you can't look at pro adjust in ISF modes.

My IP mode is set to 1. He said controlcal does not give him an option for Drive mode. Which makes sense.

From what scweb posted, I am assuming here.
1 is best for I to P for video and maybe film.
2 is a mix bag of both video and still images not the best at either.
3 is best for I to P for still images.

From this if I am correct, I would set mine to 1. Because I to P for me would only be DVD's. Not sure when the still images would come into play. Unless for pictures on your PS3?

[oppopioneer]

This is what the avsforum link above said, I guess it's best I set mine to IP Mode 2.


There shouldn't be any debate over the PureCinema/Drive Mode settings.

Drive mode only applies to 50Hz sources.

50Hz Film is actually only running at 25 with the frames doubled. 50Hz Video is at 50Hz.

The lower the refresh rate of the Pioneers (Hz) the better the picture quality is supposed to get. (better black levels, lower noise)
Drive Mode 1 = 75Hz. This is optimal for 50Hz Film sources. (25x3) It is unsuitable for Video sources, as 50 does not fit into 75 evenly.

Drive Mode 2 = 100Hz. This is optimal for 50Hz Video sources. (50x2) It is also suitable for 50Hz Film sources (25x4) but is not optimal.

Drive Mode 3 = 60Hz. (and was previously thought to be 72Hz) Neither Film or Video sources will work correctly here. The story is that they wanted to let Europeans see the Pioneers at their best (lowest refresh rate) but it is totally unsuitable for any 50Hz/PAL source.

So for a source that is only going to be playing film-based material e.g. a DVD player that is only used for movies (and not TV shows etc.) you would set it to Drive Mode 1.

For a source that is going to be using a mixture of film/video sources e.g. a Sky/Cable/Freeview box, you want Drive Mode 2.

Now, while Drive Mode does not affect sources such as a Blu-Ray player, which will be outputting a 24Hz signal when playing Blu-Ray discs (remember it only affects 50Hz sources) many people also use their Blu-Ray player to upscale their DVDs, and so you would want it on Drive Mode 1 for them. (or Drive Mode 2 if you also watch TV shows/home movies on DVD)

If you are unsure about a source, just set it to Drive Mode 2, as it will not cause problems for either Film or Video sources. Drive Mode 1 may look better with Film, but when set incorrectly, it will make things much worse. (constant stuttering)


PureCinema is (primarily) used to control how the conversion from interlaced signals to progressive signals is handled.

Many kinds of video sources are interlaced, and will either be 480i, 576i or 1080i.

Interlaced means that, rather than sending the whole image at once, it sends all the odd lines, then all the even lines and so on, as this halves the amount of bandwidth required.

There are basically two kinds of interlaced material—progressive sourced, or interlaced. (note: it's more complex than this explanation but I'm keeping it simple)

With progressive sources, what you have is a 25fps source (e.g. a Film) that has each frame split in two (odd/even lines) and sent as a half-resolution 50Hz signal. When it gets to the display, it is then supposed to be joined back up into 25 full resolution images.

With interlaced (video) sources, there are actually 50 unique images being sent, so rather than 25 full resolution images, it's 50 half-resolution images. So you have a lower resolution image, but it is updated twice as quickly, which would make it better for fast-moving things like sports, for example.


With PureCinema Off, all interlaced sources are treated as being Video ones, with 50 unique images per second. What this basically means is that progressive-based sources are essentially having their resolution halved, so films and many newer TV shows are not going to be at full resolution. This can also cause the edges of objects to flicker.

With PureCinema on Standard, it allows the display to try and work out if a source is either interlaced or progressive. If it detects the source as being progressive, you will end up with a higher resolution image on the screen that looks much better. The downside, is that it will sometimes "guess" wrongly, which can result in a stuttering image or other artefacts.

While I have not used the 9G Pioneers, I found with the 8Gs that with a source such as Freeview that has a mixture of film/video material, while there were benefits to having PureCinema on with some shows/films, it was too prone to having issues with Video-based sources, so it was best left off if you don't want to keep changing the setting all the time.

This meant halving the resolution of some content, but it was better than the distracting artefacts you would get with video sources in my opinion. Ideally, you would be turning it on/off depending on what you're watching, but that quickly gets tiresome.

PureCinema Advance does a couple of things. Firstly, it seems that it is required to be set to view 24Hz sources (Blu-Ray) at 72Hz. (24x3)

Secondly, this setting is mostly for NTSC sources. Film is shot at 24fps. In PAL territories, this is sped up to 25fps and then doubled to get to 50Hz.

In NTSC territories, their displays refresh at 60Hz, however. Now 24 doesn't fit into 60 very well, so what they do is use 3:2 pulldown. The first frame is shown three times, the next is shown twice, the one after is shown three times and so on. This ends up with 60Hz out of 24.

As each image is not being shown at the same rate, however, it results in the image juddering when things move.

With 60Hz interlaced signals (480i, 1080i) PureCinema Advance tries to detect a 3:2 cadence. If it does detect this 3:2 cadence, it extracts the original 24 frames out of the 60Hz signal and then displays them at 72Hz for judder-free motion. So this means you can play back old NTSC DVDs with smooth motion, just like new 24Hz Blu-Ray discs.

If it cannot detect a 3:2 cadence, it appears that when PureCinema is set to Advance, it just functions the same as setting PureCinema to Standard.


So for 50Hz/PAL film sources, you want PureCinema set to Standard.

With mixed sources, you want to either choose PureCinema Standard or Off, depending on your preferences.

With NTSC film sources or Blu-Ray, you want to choose PureCinema Advance.

With NTSC mixed sources (video/progressive) you want to choose PureCinema Standard or Off, depending on your preferences. (though you may want to use Advance rather than standard if it is a mixture of video, progressive content and film)

[ShockWave]

Originally Posted by oppopioneer

So set my Pio 151FD to IP Mode 1 for tv and bluray?

This mode is only for I to P, and will not effect blu-ray. I can only think of DVD's that would be up converted. I can't think of any content on TV that you would convert I to P. But, I am no expert, but the mine is set to 1 and I feel like that is fine.

[oppopioneer]

From reading the avsforum link, I came away with these settings for best PQ:

If you use your Pio Kuro for both tv viewing and movie/dvd/bluray viewing set to IP Mode 2.

Film Mode-Standard for 1080i tv viewing

Film Mode-Advance for 1080p/24 bluray viewing

[ShockWave]

I am still not understanding how you came up with IP mode two? Does the 151 have a separate setting that says I-P Mode?

Yes those PC settings are the recommended depending on how your system is connected to your TV. I run my direct TV on PC advance and don't notice any degrading effects.

This is at the very bottom of the link.

If it cannot detect a 3:2 cadence, it appears that when PureCinema is set to Advance, it just functions the same as setting PureCinema to Standard.

With NTSC film sources or Blu-Ray, you want to choose PureCinema Advance.

With NTSC mixed sources (video/progressive) you want to choose PureCinema Standard or Off, depending on your preferences. (though you may want to use Advance rather than standard if it is a mixture of video, progressive content and film)