The Criterion Collection

[oildude]

Originally Posted by ajburke

Megan Abbott's Top 10 is up on criterion.com. I found it an excellent read.

https://www.criterion.com/explore/29...bbott-s-top-10

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

This is the best Criterion Top 10 that I've read in a long time.

In fact, it's probably the second best Criterion Top 10 in the world next to my own.

Agreed. Every film on it is superb.

But she had me at Sam Fuller. Anyone who puts Fuller on their top 10 list automatically goes to the head of the class.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by callahan09

But how do you know No Country For Old Men would have been nearly as effective had it been accompanied by a musical score? It didn't have one, so to me it doesn't make a lot of sense to use it in your argument, since it doesn't have music and you can't just say "I assume it would have been just as good if it did have music". I'd use a movie like Psycho if I were you. Hitch originally wanted no music in the shower scene, but the composer created some anyway and made Hitch listen to it, after which Hitch changed his mind because it was so perfect with the music. It's now an iconic scene and iconic musical accompaniment as well. If you've watched the special feature comparing the shower scene without music as originally devised, then with the music that Hitch changed his mind to include, you can only conclude that the addition of the music drastically improves the scene.

Obviously I don't know that...but I've yet to see a film without music that I didn't believe could've been even better with the right kind of music.

And if Hitch had gone with his original instinct, there would be legions of film geeks to this day talking about how much better the shower scene in Psycho was without music.

...and they would be wrong.

...in my opinion.

[SammyJankis]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

I've only seen two of those, but I disagree.

No Country For Old Men is a good example of a film that works just fine without music of any kind. But I refuse to believe that if there had been an effective score and/or soundtrack in it that people would've been complaining that the movie would've been better without music.


"I think it's awfully reductive to think a film needs to rely on a particular element in order to be successful."

I would argue that a film without photography would not be successful.

No Country for Old Men actually has a small use of score.

More times than not, I'm bothered by the use of music than I am with the absence. It can sometimes feel too intrusive and manipulative, when what is on screen is enough to tell me what I should be feeling. (Reminds me of a Terry Gross interview with Jake Gyllenhaal, pointing out how distracting Brokeback Mountain's score was.) I think it's admirable when a filmmaker understands that a particular film may not need a score.

I'm not saying that a score is detrimental. The Conversation wouldn't have the same tone or atmosphere without that score. Jeannie Dielman wouldn't have the same impact had we heard anything that didn't involve Seyrig's life. It just depends on the piece, but I don't think it's an inherent necessity.

I would argue that a film without photography would not be successful.

I guess that explains Nymphomaniac Pt. II.

[bwdowiak]

I don't think Luis Bunuel ever used a score. I could be wrong.

Ray, what about The Birds? Can you argue that The Birds would be a better film with a score? Bunuel's Tristana is haunting as a result of it having no score.

Sammy's point about the film maker's telling us how to feel with obtrusive music is a major pet peeve of mine. I believe less is almost always better in art.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

Ray, what about The Birds? Can you argue that The Birds would be a better film with a score? .

Not on your life. I saw The Birds at Fox Theatre here in Atlanta a couple of years ago, and I was astounded at how well the sound effects worked in such a setting. During the final 30 minutes, it sounded as though birds had actually surrounded the outside of the theatre building.

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

Sammy's point about the film maker's telling us how to feel with obtrusive music is a major pet peeve of mine. I believe less is almost always better in art.

It is annoying. Another one is when the film includes a scene that panders to the audience.

A lot of Hollywood films do this by having one of the leads blow up and tell somebody off. It's intended to be a fist-pumping moment but most people roll their eyes at it.

[shadedpain4]

Originally Posted by repulsed

she could have had a foreign movie or two though. not denying all the great titles but come on

Yeah, the list is missing 8-9 Asian films for my taste.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Obviously I don't know that...but I've yet to see a film without music that I didn't believe could've been even better with the right kind of music.

And if Hitch had gone with his original instinct, there would be legions of film geeks to this day talking about how much better the shower scene in Psycho was without music.

...and they would be wrong.

...in my opinion.

Films better without a score:

Rear Window, Winter Light, Hidden, China Syndrome, M, Chop Shop, The Defiant Ones, Rope, A Separation, a bunch of Lumet. I can't recall if The Dardennes have scoreless films, but it doesn't matter. They've only made two great movies (Two Days, 1 night and Rosetta )

Now, for the most part these are thrillers and realist slice of life dramas. It totally makes sense for a lack of score to work like gangbusters. Heists, scenes of an intense life-on-the-line process, and scenes of following a poor character through his ghetto work better without score as it ratchets the tension and delays catharsis.

Magnolia is one of my favorite films mind you and that film has a soundtrack so crammed that it often has two songs going on at the same time (one diegetic and one non-diegetic). I'd just like to state the obvious and say that each film calls for its own approach.

As far as the Emigrants goes, do you think the scenes on the ship would be better with a score? I thought that the lack of one made it that much more tense (see above). A score would distract me from that cruel reality--one of many in the film.

[SammyJankis]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

I can't recall if The Dardennes have scoreless films, but it doesn't matter. They've only made two great movies (Two Days, 1 night and Rosetta )

Them's fightin' words.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by SammyJankis

Them's fightin' words.

Theres only two kinds of Dardennes movies: the "life sucks" movie and the "life sucks, but we go on" movie. ( I thought about adding the emoticon, but I'm mostly serious.)


Tangent: this is a great (if sometimes repetitive) essay on Muriel (the movie that's driven me mad in the past few days. I've seen it twice since Tuesday and scoured the net for everything I could read on it)

http://sensesofcinema.com/2005/europ...ited/muriel-2/

[SammyJankis]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Theres only two kinds of Dardennes movies: the "life sucks" movie and the "life sucks, but we go on" movie. ( I thought about adding the emoticon, but I'm mostly serious.)

Does Rosetta not fit in the former category? I'd say The Son and La Promesse belong with the latter.

[SkyAntoine]

Been on a Game of Thrones binge for the last few weeks, but I have caught a few Criterion first-time watches recently:

My Man Godfrey - One of my favorite comedies in the collection with several LOL moments for me. Fun characters, light enjoyable watch. I had a little issue with Carole Lombard's character, but it was played as it was played. It didn't detract too much for me. 9/10

The Thief of Bagdad - I was expecting to like this more than I did. I've seen so many great reviews, but it was just okay for me. The storytelling seemed a little jumbled and it did not evoke a real feel of fantasy to me. Maybe not popular here, but Disney did the story better IMO. 7/10

Carnival of Souls - Watched this on Hulu (after I couldn't get it to stream properly on the Filmstruck test site) rather than waiting for my BD. This is a case where my film rating and my enjoyment are at odds. Plot-wise and acting (other than lead role) were marginal. However, as far as an overall vibe with an eerie score, I really got into the movie. I had a similar experience with House. I'll be re-watching my BD copy soon. 7/10

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by SammyJankis

Does Rosetta not fit in the former category? I'd say The Son and La Promesse belong with the latter.

It is the former category! It's their definitive Life Sucks movie and it happens to be great.

[Cocophone]

I already own the three individual Whit Stillman blurays. Does anyone know if it's possible to buy separately the packaging (the box) for the box set?

Thanks.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by SammyJankis

No Country for Old Men actually has a small use of score.

More times than not, I'm bothered by the use of music than I am with the absence. It can sometimes feel too intrusive and manipulative, when what is on screen is enough to tell me what I should be feeling. (Reminds me of a Terry Gross interview with Jake Gyllenhaal, pointing out how distracting Brokeback Mountain's score was.) I think it's admirable when a filmmaker understands that a particular film may not need a score.

[Show spoiler]I'm not saying that a score is detrimental. The Conversation wouldn't have the same tone or atmosphere without that score. Jeannie Dielman wouldn't have the same impact had we heard anything that didn't involve Seyrig's life. It just depends on the piece, but I don't think it's an inherent necessity.

I would argue that a film without photography would not be successful.

I guess that explains Nymphomaniac Pt. II.

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by bwdowiak

I don't think Luis Bunuel ever used a score. I could be wrong.

Ray, what about The Birds? Can you argue that The Birds would be a better film with a score? Bunuel's Tristana is haunting as a result of it having no score.

Sammy's point about the film maker's telling us how to feel with obtrusive music is a major pet peeve of mine. I believe less is almost always better in art.

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

It is annoying. Another one is when the film includes a scene that panders to the audience.

A lot of Hollywood films do this by having one of the leads blow up and tell somebody off. It's intended to be a fist-pumping moment but most people roll their eyes at it.

Agree that music can be intrusive and used to pander to or tell the audience what they should be feeling. Music that reinforces the obvious is usually bad...see any Michael Bay film ever made.

The key term that I use is "effective" score...meaning the right kind of music for film X won't work for film Y. Almost any film can be better with the right kind of music...which in the case of Alice In The Cities was a very minimalist acoustic guitar theme that's used selectively throughout the film.

I haven't seen The Birds in a LONG time.

But Rear Window does have a score to my knowledge.

I'm just glad Hitchcock decided to keep the Bernard Hermann score in Vertigo. Instead of sticking with his original idea for natural sound throughout.

...wouldn't have been the same film.

[Abdrewes]

Well, I guess we can all agree on one thing...that Ray Jackson's movies will never get one of these:

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Well, I guess we can all agree on one thing...that Ray Jackson's movies will never get one of these:

[Show spoiler]

A cinematic vow of chastity.

Wow...that's hardcore.

[StingingVelvet]

After absolutely loving The New World I ordered the rest of Malick's Criterions today all at once. I saw Thin Red Line way back in the 90's and remembered loving it, which was a big reason I blind-bought New World. Have no idea what to expect from the other two, but they sound great as well.

[The Great Owl]

With regard to the discussion of music in film, George Romero's Night of the Living Dead (1968) has what is perhaps the most obtrusive use of music in the entire history of cinema, but that's part of its odd charm.

When it comes to soundtracks, Robert Zemeckis's Flight wins the golden turkey award from me.
Let's see...
- Joe Cocker's "Feelin' Alright" when Denzel Washington's character does cocaine
- Red Hot Chili Peppers - "Under the Bridge" when Kelly Reilly spots a heroin needle.
- Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" when Reilly is shooting heroin
- Rolling Stones - "Sympathy for the Devil" when the drug dealer, played by John Goodman, first appears onscreen
- Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" when Reilly and Washington start to seduce each other
- The Beatles - "A Little Help from My Friends" when Washington is intoxicated and his court entourage is helping him get on the elevator

Good Lord, watching Flight was like watching an R-rated Sesame Street episode.

[BagheeraMcGee]

Originally Posted by Cocophone

I already own the three individual Whit Stillman blurays. Does anyone know if it's possible to buy separately the packaging (the box) for the box set?

Thanks.

I believe that you could buy the box by itself from Criterion directly for $5.00. E-mail them at store@criterion.com and they'll explain how to go about it. I've ordered some replacement boxes from them, they're a pleasure to deal with and their shipping is rather quick.