The Official Premier Acoustics Owners thread

[jsr]

Just to clarify, it's not that I don't hear any bass at all. I hear some, but very low. I've changed the RCA cable from my AVR to the PA-120 with no change in results.

The level I hear both with my ear near the sub and at the listening position is what I would expect with the Bass level on the AVR set at zero to +2 and with the Sub RCA out on the AVR set in the minus region.
Instead, I hear those very low levels with the Bass set at +6 to +10 (max) and Sub RCA level out set at +6 to +12 (max). At those high level settings, I would expect the bass to be fairly loud even with small low frequency signals and low/moderate volume.

In my case, the main issue is that for the AVR settings (ALL VERY HIGH or MAX), the output of the sub is quite low.

The sub driver does move and there is sound, but not the level it should be if others have their AVR settings at -15 or so while mine has to be +12.

[BMFC]

Haven't had a chance to fool with the PA-120 yet. Just got back from copping WOTW at Best Buy. I already popped the cover off and I'm gonna move it to the right side of the room to see what happens.

[derzauberer]

Originally Posted by jsr

Just to clarify, it's not that I don't hear any bass at all. I hear some, but very low. I've changed the RCA cable from my AVR to the PA-120 with no change in results.

The level I hear both with my ear near the sub and at the listening position is what I would expect with the Bass level on the AVR set at zero to +2 and with the Sub RCA out on the AVR set in the minus region.
Instead, I hear those very low levels with the Bass set at +6 to +10 (max) and Sub RCA level out set at +6 to +12 (max). At those high level settings, I would expect the bass to be fairly loud even with small low frequency signals and low/moderate volume.

In my case, the main issue is that for the AVR settings (ALL VERY HIGH or MAX), the output of the sub is quite low.

The sub driver does move and there is sound, but not the level it should be if others have their AVR settings at -15 or so while mine has to be +12.

Ok. I have an idea of what your problem could be. It seems you did a manual setup. Such may be quite tricky if this is your first time setting up an HT system.

You mentioned that you haven't run auto calibration yet. You really should do it even if you only have front L and R and center hooked up right now. Audyssey or whatever auto calibration your AVR has will probably do better than you can do manually. You can always redo it after you get your surround speakers.

I suspect the problem is that the default speaker size setting for your AVR is large for the fronts and small for the center. If your fronts are set to large, then the sub is not getting redirected bass from the L and R front channels no matter what HPF you selected for the crossover. That means only the bass from the center, if it is set to small, is being redirected to your sub along with any bass from LFE channel. That may account for the reduced bass output. Just a thought anyway.

You should still run Audyssey even though your system isn't complete. You can always run it again after you get your surrounds. And, when you do run auto calibration, it may set still set your fronts to large. If so change them to small. You can set your crossover for the front to whatever you choose because Audyssey set EQ filters for full range. I would recommend 80 Hz though for front HPF however.

Audyssey and YPAO usually do a fair job of getting your system sounding the way it should. They arent't perfect but get you in the ballpark. Or at the very least, a good place from which to start tweaking the settings.

[jsr]

There's actually no reference to Large or Small in the manual for my AVR. Instead, they use "Full Band" to mean "Large". If you set a crossover frequency, it automatically switches to "Small". The sub is independent so that even if I set the fronts to Full Band, the sub will stay on and still receive LFE signals unless I deactivate the sub output separately (by saying there is no sub). I'll try Audyssey too to see if it makes an improvement.

To add a recent observation, it seems yesterday (was watching a part of Inception), the bass has gotten a touch louder. No changes in AVR settings or sub placement.

Has anyone noticed their PA-120 performing sub-par when they initially received it and then waking up later?

My settings are still positive as opposed to others who have minus settings for their sub output level in the AVR, so it still doesn't seem to be performing to expectations.

/*Rant
I would set up my surrounds if Monoprice would stop losing my speaker wire order. I'm waiting on their 3rd attempt at shipping it to me. Apparently, their local (socal) delivery service is retarded and keeps leaving the package at another house. Not only that, they leave it at the garage door instead of a front door. I know this because on the 2nd attempt, they took a picture of the package in front of a garage door, which wasn't mine because my driveway doesn't have the cracks shown in the picture. So they not only deliver it to the wrong house, but they're too lazy to even bring the package to the front door of that house. And when I called Monoprice, all they say is sorry, we'll send it again (been 3 weeks now), and if you don't want to use this service, you can pay for the higher priced delivery service. I don't think I'll ever order from Monoprice again since they're accepting of the incompetence of the delivery service they use and feel the customer should eat the cost of that incompetence by being forced to select considerably pricier shipping methods.
No other delivery service (UPS, Fedex, Ontrac, DHL, etc.) has ever not found my front door.
/*End

[BMFC]

Ok, I spen about 2 hours playing around with placement and setting.


I finally said screw it and ran Audyssey. I ran it 3 times and the difference is huge.


I'm getting some real good roar from this thing. WOTW was


Watching Battle Los Angeles right now.

[jsr]

BFMC - can you please check what audessey set your speaker and sub levels to?
Also, what is your bass setting at?
Thanks.

[Aerodude73]

Originally Posted by BMFC

Ok, I spen about 2 hours playing around with placement and setting.


I finally said screw it and ran Audyssey. I ran it 3 times and the difference is huge.


I'm getting some real good roar from this thing. WOTW was


Watching Battle Los Angeles right now.

WAR OF THE WORLDS is truly Epic for the LFE. When the Alien POD first comes out of the street at that intersection, if you have your Sub (or Subs, like moi' ), set up properly, your room could/should quite literally "Vibrate"

It happened to me. Twas' a Beautiful thing...




Also, BATTLE LA has all around Terrific Audio!!

[BMFC]

Originally Posted by jsr

BFMC - can you please check what audessey set your speaker and sub levels to?
Also, what is your bass setting at?
Thanks.

I'll check in the morning.

[derzauberer]

Originally Posted by jsr

There's actually no reference to Large or Small in the manual for my AVR. Instead, they use "Full Band" to mean "Large". If you set a crossover frequency, it automatically switches to "Small". The sub is independent so that even if I set the fronts to Full Band, the sub will stay on and still receive LFE signals unless I deactivate the sub output separately (by saying there is no sub). I'll try Audyssey too to see if it makes an improvement.

To add a recent observation, it seems yesterday (was watching a part of Inception), the bass has gotten a touch louder. No changes in AVR settings or sub placement.

Has anyone noticed their PA-120 performing sub-par when they initially received it and then waking up later?

My settings are still positive as opposed to others who have minus settings for their sub output level in the AVR, so it still doesn't seem to be performing to expectations.

/*Rant
I would set up my surrounds if Monoprice would stop losing my speaker wire order. I'm waiting on their 3rd attempt at shipping it to me. Apparently, their local (socal) delivery service is retarded and keeps leaving the package at another house. Not only that, they leave it at the garage door instead of a front door. I know this because on the 2nd attempt, they took a picture of the package in front of a garage door, which wasn't mine because my driveway doesn't have the cracks shown in the picture. So they not only deliver it to the wrong house, but they're too lazy to even bring the package to the front door of that house. And when I called Monoprice, all they say is sorry, we'll send it again (been 3 weeks now), and if you don't want to use this service, you can pay for the higher priced delivery service. I don't think I'll ever order from Monoprice again since they're accepting of the incompetence of the delivery service they use and feel the customer should eat the cost of that incompetence by being forced to select considerably pricier shipping methods.
No other delivery service (UPS, Fedex, Ontrac, DHL, etc.) has ever not found my front door.
/*End

Yamaha AVRs like my A810 don't seem to have settings quite like yours, but it does seem that you are on the right track. Once you run Audyssey, I believe you too will discover a vast improvement not in not only the bass but the entire sound range as well.

Some claim that speakers and subs need breaking in. You may have notice some improvement due to that aspect. I neither noticed nor heard any tangible improvements in speaker performance after completing a break-in period though. I did do what the manufacturers recommend however just for good measure.

Don't loose any sleep over getting higher positive subwoofer level settings after you run Audyssey. Keep in mind that the PA-120s aren't the most efficient subs out there being +85 db SPL at 1.0 meter/1.0 Watt input sensitivity rating. Your fronts may be far more efficient. It isn't uncommon for some speakers out there to have > +90 db SPL sensitivity ratings. If yours are among them, then you may have to live with those subwoofer levels in your AVR to match it to the speakers in the rest of your system. If you max out the AVR's range, you may have to turn up the gain on the sub. Again, it doesn't mean the sub is necessarily defective. If someone gets minus levels like mine, at -4.0 db, it doesn't imply that everyone else should be getting minus level settings nor does it imply that everything is rosy. That's because YPAO in my AVR may have decreased it's level excessively due to a nasty peak in the sub's response somewhere that wasn't taken care of by proper sub placement. There are so many variables to deal with. HTs are just as individual as people are. Almost anything goes. Having said that, there are guidelines to follow but you have to take into account that there is no perfect HT nor is it rocket science.

I have bought many audio and speaker cables from Monoprice. Never even once did I have any problems dealing with them. I highly recommend them. I used to be a Monster Cable junkie. No more. Monoprice offers equal if not better products at reasonable prices.

Edit PS: While on that note. Amazon is also infamous for outrages shipping tactics and prices. I once ordered a three buck DVD from them and paid double that in shipping! At my local video store it would have cost me $9.99. You pay either way. Amazon and Monoprice are pretty typical from my experience after ordering stuff off the web. Blame USPS, UPS, and FedEx.

[derzauberer]

Originally Posted by Aerodude73

WAR OF THE WORLDS is truly Epic for the LFE. When the Alien POD first comes out of the street at that intersection, if you have your Sub (or Subs, like moi' ), set up properly, your room could/should quite literally "Vibrate"

It happened to me. Twas' a Beautiful thing...




Also, BATTLE LA has all around Terrific Audio!!

That explains where the cracks in the floor came from!

[derzauberer]

Originally Posted by BMFC

Ok, I spen about 2 hours playing around with placement and setting.


I finally said screw it and ran Audyssey. I ran it 3 times and the difference is huge.


I'm getting some real good roar from this thing. WOTW was


Watching Battle Los Angeles right now.

Bravo!


Yes, Audyssey (YPAO for me) does make a difference.

[jsr]

I'm not really concerned that the sub channel setting on my AVR is positive. Having not done Audessey cal yet, the AVR has no idea of the sub's relative output level to the fronts. The AVR at specific level settings will output a specific rms voltage. My concern is that if everyone else is running well into the negative region on their sub channel setting, that means for a small range of LFE signal from the AVR, the sub either doesn't have enough gain in its amp or the driver has poor sensitivity relative to everyone elses' units, in which case there is a unique performance defect/degradation on my unit. I understand when cal is done that the sub's level relative to the other speakers will change and may go positive to allow the sub keep up with the other speakers, but without cal, that relative leveling isn't there. I'm more looking at the absolute output level of the sub relative to everyone elses'.

For example (not real numbers, used for simplicity):
Let's say my AVR LFE signal output range is 1V to 11V (for AVR sub channel setting range of -5 to +5, approx. 1V/setting)
Another person's AVR LFE signal output range may be 2V to 12V (also -5 to +5 setting range)

I set my AVR to +5 for a LFE signal of 11Vrms and the sub outputs 70dB
Another person sets his AVR to -5 for a LFE signal of 2V and the sub outputs 75dB

(ignore room placement, assume measurement taken 1ft in front of sub)

There's definitely something wrong with the amp gain or driver efficiency of my unit. I doubt there's a huge difference in the range of output voltages amongst the various AVR brands (Onkyo, Yamaha, etc.)...they should be relatively close such that huge differences in settings, such as someone mentioning theirs is set at -15 while mine has to be maxed at +12 and theirs is still louder, allows us to ignore the small differences in output levels from the AVR sub channels.

Lots of variables, which makes troubleshooting all the more difficult. Your guys help and info are greatly appreciated and needed to continue identifying my issue.

Another reason I haven't run Audessey cal is because I needed the speaker wire from Monoprice to place the speakers where I wanted them. I'm currently using scrap speaker wire pieces I already had and their limited length selections limit my placement.

As for Monoprice, I do blame their delivery service - Overnight Express by Norco - which takes 3 days to deliver "overnight" (this is the time for their first attempt). Their utter inability to deliver packages is mystifying. However, I also blame Monoprice for using such an incompetent delivery service and being satisfied with the discontent of the customers that they will continue to use that service as a default with the only available option that the customer pay more to avoid a poor default delivery choice made by Monoprice.
I've never had problems with Amazon. I typically order their items with Free Shipping, but even when I've paid for shipping, I never felt their prices were outrageous. And I'm not complaining about paying for Monoprice's shipping...I paid for the Norco Overnight, but I'm severely disappointed (and delayed by several weeks) by their delivery service's inability to make a delivery and Monoprice being ok with that by continuing to use that service. I finally got the speaker wire yesterday and that was because I requested they use UPS. The Monoprice rep said it may take longer because it's not Norco Overnight...I actually got it 1 day from them shipping it out. So UPS was not only faster, but also accurate. I've never had a problem with UPS, Fedex, DHL, Ontrac or any other delivery service finding my house or finding a front door to a house. I won't pay $10 more to Monoprice just to avoid Monoprice's use of an incompetent delivery service just so I don't have to wait 3 weeks, 3 delivery attempts and multiple CS calls to receive my order. I do like their products and their customer support was helpful, but I'd rather go with a company that uses a delivery service that can deliver.

[BMFC]

Originally Posted by jsr

BFMC - can you please check what audessey set your speaker and sub levels to?
Also, what is your bass setting at?
Thanks.

Front L 0.0
Center -3.0
Front R -2.5
Sub -0.5 (I changed it to 0.0)


Set my speakers to Large, I switched it to small. Also had the distance to far back by 1.5 feet or so, so I adjusted that.


Bass Setting is set to LFE, LPF for LFE is 120 hz


On my sub, Crossover is at 200, Phase 0, Gain is at 6 (Ran Audyssey at 5, turned it up a tad)


My speakers aren't in ideal position that's why the L/R is off.


My MANCAVE is a cluttered mess right now, so when I get it squared away, and hook my surrounds up, I plan on really getting serious about adjusting my AVR/speakers. I just ran Audyssey now to get everything in the ballpark. It sounds good right now, but it should sound better in a week or two.



Sorry it took me a while to respond. I'm headed out of town for the weekend. Good luck with everything.

[jaejw1]

Originally Posted by Aerodude73

Also, BATTLE LA has all around Terrific Audio!!

Amazing audio,,,, so does RANGO,,,, going to check out LIMITLESS later on

[Aerodude73]

Originally Posted by jaejw1

Amazing audio,,,, so does RANGO,,,, going to check out LIMITLESS later on

Hey buddy!! How goes it? Glad you enjoyed the Incredible Audio on B:LA. I've heard RANGO has good/great Audio as well, just not interested in that personally

LIMITLESS is a pretty good flick. I'd give it a 3.5 of 5 Star rating. The Audio should be pretty good in it though, & you'll know what I mean when you see it.

[BMFC]

Rumble, Rumble, Roar, Roar

[jsr]

BFMC -

Thanks for your settings. Looks like the sub channel output on your AVR is higher than others I've been told of also (albeit, mine right now is still higher than yours). I'll run Audessey soon to see what it adjusts it auto adjusts it to.

BTW, are you using the RCA cable that came with the PA-120? Just plugging in 1 of the RCA jacks into the PA-120 in and leaving the out unconnected?

Thanks.

[derzauberer]

Those cables are cheap as they come. The PA-120 deserves better. Get some RG-6 or RG-59 coaxial cables. They will also be better for longer lengths too.

[BMFC]

Originally Posted by jsr

BFMC -

Thanks for your settings. Looks like the sub channel output on your AVR is higher than others I've been told of also (albeit, mine right now is still higher than yours). I'll run Audessey soon to see what it adjusts it auto adjusts it to.

BTW, are you using the RCA cable that came with the PA-120? Just plugging in 1 of the RCA jacks into the PA-120 in and leaving the out unconnected?

Thanks.

I'm using a Mediabridge Ultra Series Sub Cable. Got an eight foot cable from Amazon for $8.99.

[jsr]

I have a new cable on the way. I need a 20ft cable as the sub is near the opposite wall from the receiver.