T2 ROTF Audio Poll

[ckyllr]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Alright, so I tested the optical cable theory between the MA and the core (also tried setting the PS3 to bitstream instead of PCM)... I found the MA to be superior. There was not a drop in bass for me between the 2. I even had an SPL meter that I was measuring with.

Was this the Walmart/IMAX edition?

[progers13]

Originally Posted by Apophis906

I wanted to check something so I took the first 5 minutes of the IMAX version and decoded the core and then the whole lossless track. I first removed the dialog norm from the DTSMA track and then split out the core and decoded both of them to wav. In the image below the top line is the core's LFE track, the middle one is the DTSMA LFE track. I took the DTSMA LFE track and added 4dbs to it and that is the bottom one.

I found this to be interesting. Very interesting. Please elaborate. To my untrained eyes, it appears that the bottom track (which is DTS-HD MA with +4db added back in) is the same as the top track (the core track). Are you substantiating that this is, in fact, dialnorm and can be solved as simply as turning up the volume knob?

[Apophis906]

Originally Posted by progers13

I found this to be interesting. Very interesting. Please elaborate. To my untrained eyes, it appears that the bottom track (which is DTS-HD MA with +4db added back in) is the same as the top track (the core track). Are you substantiating that this is, in fact, dialnorm and can be solved as simply as turning up the volume knob?

The weird thing is that the middle one should look like the bottom one. The dialognorm was removed before any decoding was done. So even after that their was 4db still needed to be added back into the MA track to get equal to the core. This could be what some are hearing when they compare the core to the lossless track. I just think its odd that its 4db lower than the core is all. It also covers any wondering if it has an LFE at all, since this is the LFE track. Now this is just comparing the core to the lossless part of the IMAX version, I dont have the regular version to compare too. Maybe someone with both could do this and let us see.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by progers13

I found this to be interesting. Very interesting. Please elaborate. To my untrained eyes, it appears that the bottom track (which is DTS-HD MA with +4db added back in) is the same as the top track (the core track). Are you substantiating that this is, in fact, dialnorm and can be solved as simply as turning up the volume knob?

That is what that is saying, yes. It's also showing that there isn't a lack of bass in the MA track compared to the core like others are saying.

EDIT: Sorry, I read it wrong. I thought the middle one was without Dialnorm correction and the bottom one was after it had been corrected.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by ckyllr

Was this the Walmart/IMAX edition?

Yes it was.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Alright, so I tested the optical cable theory between the MA and the core (also tried setting the PS3 to bitstream instead of PCM)... I found the MA to be superior. There was not a drop in bass for me between the 2. I even had an SPL meter that I was measuring with.

Originally Posted by ckyllr

Was this the Walmart/IMAX edition?

This question is very important as only the IMAX edtion of ROTF is affected. The non-Imax Blu-ray is not affected by this audio discrepancy.

Also please note that the case for the Walmart BSE (Big Screen Edition/IMAX) exclusive is identical b/w the DVD and BD with the exception of the blue stripe up top for the BD.

[trans22]

How on earth can BLU-RAY.COM give a 5 star rating for this movies audio when it has been excessively dial-normed and dialogue is too hard to hear, unbelievable.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by EWL5

This question is very important as only the IMAX edtion of ROTF is affected. The non-Imax Blu-ray is not affected by this audio discrepancy.

Also please note that the case for the Walmart BSE (Big Screen Edition/IMAX) exclusive is identical b/w the DVD and BD with the exception of the blue stripe up top for the BD.

Don't worry, I don't think anyone here is testing out the DVD and confusing it for the Blu-ray.

After testing multiple scenes on the IMAX version for a second time... I get the same results when using an SPL meter. I do not have a lack of bass when switching between the MA or the core track. If anything, I have more bass with the MA.

I also basically did this blindly where I was switching between bitstream and PCM without knowing which one was which by simply holding the remote in my hand and hitting up/down and enter. But every time I noticed a sublte improvement, I would check and it would be the MA track being decoded.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by trans22

How on earth can BLU-RAY.COM give a 5 star rating for this movies audio when it has been excessively dial-normed and dialogue is too hard to hear, unbelievable.

Because, for the millionth time, Dialnorm simply adjusts the volume of the track. It does not take anything away from the audio. A -4db difference is NOT "excessively dial-normed" either. It's actually on par with pretty much every other Paramount release.

[HDPlasma]

Originally Posted by trans22

How on earth can BLU-RAY.COM give a 5 star rating for this movies audio when it has been excessively dial-normed and dialogue is too hard to hear, unbelievable.

Because they reviewed the Standard version, not the Imax version which has inconclusive reports on it's audio comparison to the standard, which most believe sounds better.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by trans22

How on earth can BLU-RAY.COM give a 5 star rating for this movies audio when it has been excessively dial-normed and dialogue is too hard to hear, unbelievable.

Dialnorm is nothing more than a volume adjustment. It is NOT applied to the actual soundtrack itself.

It's a small piece of data to tell your receiver to turn down the volume by -4db.
If you have a Blu-ray PC drive, you can manually strip away this small data and you will get the original and unaltered soundtrack. And for all we know, it could very well be the same as the regular BD.

[scubasteve2]

I will attest and say the Regular BD sounds better than the IMAX BD.

I own both and tried out the opening sequences on each disc (Paramount title/Fallen and the "cavemen"/Shanghai scenes).

Regular version wins out strictly on an audio comparison.

Simply "turning up the volume" on the IMAX BD didn't cut it. There were still audio issues with the track itself. Although, it sounds great in my personal, home IMAX theater at my beach villa.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by HDPlasma

Because they reviewed the Standard version, not the Imax version which has inconclusive reports on it's audio comparison to the standard, which most believe sounds better.

No, they reviewed both. In the IMAX version, they said they didn't adjust the volume for the IMAX version and said it sounds slightly weaker than the regular edition. Which makes absolute sense as they didn't adjust for dialnorm.

So how is it that people comparing both are saying "once you adjust for dialnorm, they sound identical" while others are claiming there's more to it than that and the regular version still sounds better?

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by scubasteve2

I will attest and say the Regular BD sounds better than the IMAX BD.

I own both and tried out the opening sequences on each disc (Paramount title/Fallen and the "cavemen"/Shanghai scenes).

Regular version wins out strictly on an audio comparison.

Simply "turning up the volume" on the IMAX BD didn't cut it. There were still audio issues with the track itself. Although, it sounds great in my personal, home IMAX theater at my beach villa.

At least I'm not going crazy by myself. I never felt the need to increase the volume as I felt the dialog was audible.

Does your IMAX theater require special decoders or do you have audio equipment comparable to consumer level AVR decoding?

[Apophis906]

Ok let me try this again, as I found a mistake. It seems that eac3to was not taking the dialognorm out of the MA track really, just saying it had. I redid it again this time leaving dialognorm on for everything. In the image the top one is the core with dialognorm still in it, the middle one is the MA track with dialognorm still in it, and the last one is the MA track after it has had 4dbs added back to it. With the 4db from the dialognorm added back in, it hits its 0db mark. This shows that the core has no more LFE than the MA track does, you can also see the parts that were lost in the lossy core over the lossless MA track on the IMAX version.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Apophis906

Ok let me try this again, as I found a mistake. It seems that eac3to was not taking the dialognorm out of the MA track really, just saying it had. I redid it again this time leaving dialognorm on for everything. In the image the top one is the core with dialognorm still in it, the middle one is the MA track with dialognorm still in it, and the last one is the MA track after it has had 4dbs added back to it. With the 4db from the dialognorm added back in, it hits its 0db mark. This shows that the core has no more LFE than the MA track does, you can also see the parts that were lost in the lossy core over the lossless MA track on the IMAX version.

Which is in line with my findings as well. Thank you for posting this! It pretty much kills the theory that the lossy core has better bass than the lossless.

Now if someone would only compare the theatrical to the IMAX version all this back and forth could pretty much end (though I highly doubt it would, there would still be those claiming to hear a major difference).

[Apophis906]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Which is in line with my findings as well. Thank you for posting this! It pretty much kills the theory that the lossy core has better bass than the lossless.

Now if someone would only compare the theatrical to the IMAX version all this back and forth could pretty much end (though I highly doubt it would, there would still be those claiming to hear a major difference).

Your welcome, just trying to get stuff straight around here.

Well I have it in my Netflix queue, but you know how that is with everyone wanting it and it being a new release.

[Jeff Kleist]

I found this to be interesting. Very interesting. Please elaborate. To my untrained eyes, it appears that the bottom track (which is DTS-HD MA with +4db added back in) is the same as the top track (the core track). Are you substantiating that this is, in fact, dialnorm and can be solved as simply as turning up the volume knob?

Yes it can be solved by just turning the volume knob

Thanks for the output Apophis, maybe someone else who has the theatrical can do that one. It'd be good to do the forest, the steel factory opening and the ending, since those are the booming/most dynamic

The MA track absolutely has more bass to it, here I overlayed them, but replace color wasn't capturing the dithered bits, so here's animated GIF (have to download zip cause forum converts to jpg)

[progers13]

Originally Posted by Apophis906

Ok let me try this again, as I found a mistake. It seems that eac3to was not taking the dialognorm out of the MA track really, just saying it had. I redid it again this time leaving dialognorm on for everything. In the image the top one is the core with dialognorm still in it, the middle one is the MA track with dialognorm still in it, and the last one is the MA track after it has had 4dbs added back to it. With the 4db from the dialognorm added back in, it hits its 0db mark. This shows that the core has no more LFE than the MA track does, you can also see the parts that were lost in the lossy core over the lossless MA track on the IMAX version.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Which is in line with my findings as well. Thank you for posting this! It pretty much kills the theory that the lossy core has better bass than the lossless.

Now if someone would only compare the theatrical to the IMAX version all this back and forth could pretty much end (though I highly doubt it would, there would still be those claiming to hear a major difference).

Thanks guys. Very useful information here. To coin a phrase, the picture paints a thousand words!

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by Apophis906

Ok let me try this again, as I found a mistake. It seems that eac3to was not taking the dialognorm out of the MA track really, just saying it had. I redid it again this time leaving dialognorm on for everything. In the image the top one is the core with dialognorm still in it, the middle one is the MA track with dialognorm still in it, and the last one is the MA track after it has had 4dbs added back to it. With the 4db from the dialognorm added back in, it hits its 0db mark. This shows that the core has no more LFE than the MA track does, you can also see the parts that were lost in the lossy core over the lossless MA track on the IMAX version.

Could somebody PLEASE do a graph like this for the BSE vs the Standard version so we can verify one way or the other IF the audio tracks are the same or not after turning up the BSE 4db?


The problem is this review.......http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/?p=27195....... makes no sense IF the only dif between these 2 versions is a 4db decrease due to dialnorm. Once you turn up the BSE 4db the 2 tracks should be IDENTICAL, BUT highdefdiscnews is reporting a 8-10db dif still after all that which makes no fricken sense unless the 2 tracks are infact dif mixes. If somebody could do a graph like the one above for the BSE vs the regular version we could kill this confusion and solve this once and for all. At this point I am ready to take back my unopened BSE and grab the regular version as I am not convinced the ONLY dif is a 4db volume dif.........A comparison graph of a few dif scenes throughout the film could give us the answer to this and we can put this behind us.