8K discussion thread

[Geoff D]

Hah! I bet it'd still come near the bottom in a public shootout with OLED though, the cognoscenti would never allow such a transgression to pass, being bested by a filthy LCD. If only Vincent would actually say such things about OLED and LCD more often, but then he knows his audience too well.

How close are we to actually getting that display out to market though, philochs? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question (we don't know) but you've been awfully quick to throw everything else ever under the bus as a result, it's what I love about you: all or nuthin'. I think we're gonna be waiting a good few years yet before consumer grade sets get anywhere near 10000 nits if only for the power regulations and whatnot, so you might have to put up with sub-par HDR for a while longer. Or am I right in recalling that you don't actually have a 4K HDR TV yet?

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

How close are we to actually getting that display out to market though, philochs? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question (we don't know) but you've been awfully quick to throw everything else ever under the bus as a result, it's what I love about you: all or nuthin'. I think we're gonna be waiting a good few years yet before consumer grade sets get anywhere near 10000 nits if only for the power regulations and whatnot, so you might have to put up with sub-par HDR for a while longer. Or am I right in recalling that you don't actually have a 4K HDR TV yet?

Of course I have to answer, sorry, it's my nature. Besides, I think I have a good rough idea. Samsung is already doing 8K/4000nits this years, so that's just not going to be cutting edge next year. A Sony rep said to expect the A1U to launch "Sooner rather than later", so I think it's safe to assume their new SoC launch in at least one model next year, and that will be the genuine successor to the Z9D. 10,000nit is an actual capability, part of the spec of the chip itself. So to me, it's within the realm of possibility that they'll go all in, give it a monster backlighting system, and full-spec HDR in that 2019 model. It would be insane, but would also give Sony a monopoly on full spec HDR for a little while. If they don't do that, it'll be in the next flagship LCD after that. They could go 5000-6000nits next year, keep that as a flagship for 2-3 years and then go full-spec HDR. After two generations, it'll certainly be time for a new chip.

Power regulations on a tv are the last thing we care about in the US, that really sounds like something European nations would be more concerned about. Just a single bulb from a grow op is 1000w, and people run those suckers 24/7 in their spare bedrooms.

No, I'm not an early adopter. I watch most of my content on a quality 1080p short-throw projector right now, and since most available content is 1080p or less, I'm okay with that for the time being. I'm still waiting for the technology to improve, for the kinks to be ironed out, for prices to drop. I'm used to watching on a screen size over 100" now. For tv sets, the next one I buy will be 8K, full-spec HDR, I can afford to wait. Any future laptops and projectors will be 4K with HDR. I love you early adopter guys, but I can't claim to be one. I do keep up to date on the technological advancements though. I used to be really excited about OLED, but now that CES 2018 came around, and people's opinion's of OLED/MicroLED has changed to 'meh', well I guess I've joined the ruthless mobs. 25,000 independent dimming zones is enough for most people. The most exciting thing at the entire CES 2018 was the full-spec HDR display, and so of course it's captured my imagination.

[Geoff D]

That sounds more likely to me, that they'll come back with a 5000+ nit 4K flagship next year and let that run for a couple of years while everyone else catches up before finally unleashing the 8K big boy.

As for power consumption regulations on US TVs you might wanna tell the California Energy Commission that it's the last thing you care about, see what they say. It's not just the "european nations" who have such things in place.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That sounds more likely to me, that they'll come back with a 5000+ nit 4K flagship next year and let that run for a couple of years while everyone else catches up before finally unleashing the 8K big boy.

As for power consumption regulations on US TVs you might wanna tell the California Energy Commission that it's the last thing you care about, see what they say. It's not just the "european nations" who have such things in place.

Well, Sony and LG will definitely release their first 8K tv sets next year, so the true successor to the Z9D will be 8K, even if they release a 4K version alongside of it. You know that it's just the HDR highlights that use that extra nits, so how much wattage could such a tv burn through? I suppose it would be expensive, no falling asleep with the tv on. Yes, California is kind of EU like, now that you mention it, but I just can't imagine that seriously impacting the release date of Full-spec HDR tv.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by philochs

Well, Sony and LG will definitely release their first 8K tv sets next year, so the true successor to the Z9D will be 8K, even if they release a 4K version alongside of it. You know that it's just the HDR highlights that use that extra nits, so how much wattage could such a tv burn through? I suppose it would be expensive, no falling asleep with the tv on. Yes, California is kind of EU like, now that you mention it, but I just can't imagine that seriously impacting the release date of Full-spec HDR tv.

Since you are mentioning the 2012 EU law still in effect. Yes California has similar energy conservation laws.

the on-mode power consumption of a television with visible screen area A expressed in dm2 shall not exceed 16 Watts + A * 3.4579 Watts/dm2

A 65in widescreen TV has a screen area of 116.47 dm2, according to this excellent TV screen size comparator and an online conversion tool. Plugging the number into the EU’s equation gives us a maximum power consumption of 419 watts

So earlier you had Joe Diem's post showing you can't get too much brighter and still allowed to be sold in EU and California as examples.

Z9D power consumption
65" 322w (1800 peak nits)
75" 428w (1800 peak nits)
100" 767w (2800 peak nits)

I'm sure technology will advance pushing lighting source efficiency to the max for TV's. The huge question will concern *8k panels, that will be tough as they use a lot of energy comparably.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That sounds more likely to me, that they'll come back with a 5000+ nit 4K flagship next year and let that run for a couple of years while everyone else catches up before finally unleashing the 8K big boy.

As for power consumption regulations on US TVs you might wanna tell the California Energy Commission that it's the last thing you care about, see what they say. It's not just the "european nations" who have such things in place.

Yep, these Euro and Cali regs are what killed Plasmas.
Still, energy efficiency is an admirable goal in a world with global warming.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Since you are mentioning the 2012 EU law still in effect. Yes California has similar energy conservation laws.

I'm sure technology will advance pushing lighting source efficiency to the max for TV's. The huge question will concern *8k panels, that will be tough as they use a lot of energy comparably.

So full-spec HDR tvs literally might not be sold in the EU and California? Man, that would suck for consumers in those markets, to have to wait longer for 10K nits, and settle for a watered-down version because of energy laws. I can't say anything about the EU regulations, but I have to think that lobbyists would eventually get them to bend their rules, to allow for Full-spec HDR tvs in California. It would be silly if you couldn't get a 100" 8K/10,000nit tv in California, where tv shows and movies are actually produced, and where some people can afford $20,000 for a tv. I could see companies simply not offering extra-large screen full-spec HDR tvs in Europe for a while, due to energy consumption laws, but it seems a bit Orwellian.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ

Amazing how some people now talk about 8K, yet previously held out delusional thoughts on other threads.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=284305

But then again we live in a time where characters & clowns alike seem to chop-n-change their opinions & promptly forget what they spouted.

There are some threads with serious people, this is one of them.
• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8K_resolution

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by philochs

So full-spec HDR tvs literally might not be sold in the EU and California? Man, that would suck for consumers in those markets, to have to wait longer for 10K nits, and settle for a watered-down version because of energy laws. I can't say anything about the EU regulations, but I have to think that lobbyists would eventually get them to bend their rules, to allow for Full-spec HDR tvs in California. It would be silly if you couldn't get a 100" 8K/10,000nit tv in California, where tv shows and movies are actually produced, and where some people can afford $20,000 for a tv. I could see companies simply not offering extra-large screen full-spec HDR tvs in Europe for a while, due to energy consumption laws, but it seems a bit Orwellian.

The problem is you have finite power capacity in the USA where you have more people, California has 12.1% (39.25 million -2016) of the USA population and their adhering to the Energy Star guidelines 2015-10-30 v 7.0 is applicable to ≥2160 line displays. So because just about every TV that is sold in this country has to be sold here, ever manufacturer makes a effort to meet the latest Energy Star guidelines. Per reading documents; while these regulations are not mandatory in other states, the vast majority of TVs sold in the U.S. since at least 2010 have met the CEC requirements.

The Energy Star 7.0 spec says the On-mode (W) for res ≥ 2160 lines = 1.5 ∙ (14 + 78.5 ∙ tanh(0.00050 ∙ (area – 140) + 0.038) with a standby/passive of 0.5 watts.

So what that means is that there isn't any rules to equate different On-mode (W) between 4K and 8K displays at this time. I sure this will be worked out before 8 k displays are able to be sold, but its anyones guess to how this will work out for people that go for the first 8K models.

[Staying Salty]

https://www.redsharknews.com/technol...ale-it#twitter

With prices of 4K TV displays tumbling there’s only one direction a manufacturer of display hardware can head. Both LG and market leader Samsung have debuted 8K TVs and, although there’s hardly any content to watch on them outside of Japan, Samsung has a solution to the content gap.
It is using an AI-powered algorithm to upsample 4K, and even lower-resolution content, to 8K.

“It lets consumers enjoy just about any movie or TV show on any channel in 8K resolution regardless of native resolution or method of transmission,” said Samsung in a blog post.

The company says it uses machine learning and a database of millions of images in order to find the best way to upsample images and video. When fed with a source in low resolution, this feature of the QLED TV selects the optimal filter and converts the source into a high-quality image….

This was one of the more eye-catching uses of AI sprouting at CES, though it has to be said that a decent number of things marketed as AI are, in fact, merely very good algorithms.

[Staying Salty]

https://www.rapidtvnews.com/20180112...#axzz54E20wDeg

IHS8K_12Jan2018.jpg

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://www.rapidtvnews.com/20180112...#axzz54E20wDeg

A bit unrealistic to say the least.

IHS Markit believes that even though Ultra HD panels are estimated to account for more than 98% of the 60-inch and larger display market in 2017, most TV panel suppliers are planning to mass produce 8K displays in 2018. It forecasts that the 7680 x 4320-pixel resolution display will make up about 1% of the 60-inch and larger display market this year and 9% in 2020.

Not likely, I think a lot of these articles are baseless because they don't look at all the engineering hurdles to achieve. Its all filler to promote their financial analysis subscriptions maybe for investing in certain recommended companies.

For starters they just showed the first HDMI 2.1 interface at CES 2018 and the HDMI LA (Licensing Administrator) hopes to publish the first HDMI 2.1 compliance test specifications in Q2 and roll out the rest in phases through Q3 and Q4, but certified products aren’t likely to be on the market this year, HDMI Forum executives said during CES 2018.

Trust technology writers, avoid financial companies malarky.

[JohnAV]

CES: What to Know About Those 8K TVs - Hollywood Reporter

Currently, streaming services such as Netflix are focused on moving to 4K, not 8K, and the new Ultra HD Blu Ray format is also aimed at 4K.

Even if the infrastructure did support 8K, the other issue is the content. There are very few cameras in the world designed to shoot 8K images (for instance, the Red Weapon with its 8K sensor option is available; and Canon is working on a full 8K camera system and has already been shipping 8K lenses to NHK.)

And 8K postproduction — moving 16 times more data than HD — is going to be slower and more expensive. Without an 8K home entertainment business model and infrastructure, 8K just isn’t a priority for content creators.

At least not this year.

[Geoff D]

That's why I keep saying that full 8K as far as movies goes is utter fantasy on the larger scale of things but why it may just catch on for streaming, the studios still pumping out 2K finishes out of sheer necessity are the problem more than anything on the movie front. But when you're a Netflix or whoever you can demand a certain spec for your content so people can tailor their production pipelines accordingly, same goes for TV.

[Joce]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's why I keep saying that full 8K as far as movies goes is utter fantasy on the larger scale of things but why it may just catch on for streaming, the studios still pumping out 2K finishes out of sheer necessity are the problem more than anything on the movie front. But when you're a Netflix or whoever you can demand a certain spec for your content so people can tailor their production pipelines accordingly, same goes for TV.

+1.

Most of studios are too lazy today to finish the post-productions of their movies in 4K, even if they were filmed in 4K. I know it costs more money and time. I can't imagine them going to the 8K side, not before a while.

[JohnAV]

8K? I don’t even have 4K yet!’ The future of television is still far off - Digital trends - By Parker Hall - January 15, 2018

We’re not going to tell you that buying an 8K TV makes sense for the average person in 2018, because it doesn’t. Just like 4K before it, there are numerous reasons why it is presently impractical to purchase an 8K TV, even when you ignore its exceptionally high price point.

Unless you plan on watching TV in Japan, which has already upgraded to 8K broadcasts, there is almost no content available in such high resolution, which means that everything you see on an 8K TV, at least for the time being, will be upscaled. There’s also reason to believe that it will take a long time before streaming services support 8K even modestly, because of the massive amount of bandwidth required to broadcast that much data over broadband. Heck, outside of Netflix and Amazon, it’s tough to even find much 4K content these days.

And yet, there’s one thing about 8K that we hate to tell you just before you (rightly) upgrade to 4K at home: Just like all the cutting-edge screen tech before it, as soon as you see one in person, you’re going to want it in your home.

There’s something that happens to your eyes when they see 8K resolution on a large screen — where the dramatic increase in pixels per square inch is most apparent and akin to looking through a window. The massive resolution brings an astonishing sense of realism to every shot, providing a sense of depth and dimension that has been previously unseen on screens this size. Digital Trends’ A/V editor Caleb Denison refers to it as an almost 3D effect, with shots that come through so clear and detailed you feel like you could fall into another dimension.

In the future, 8K is going to make a lot of sense. Large 8K screens could eventually replace high-end projectors as the best way of watching large images in medium-sized rooms, bringing previously unseen brightness — by way of technology like Samsung’s MicroLED — to dedicated viewing rooms. And 8K also offers retail applications, as a means of promoting products and advertising that is clearer and more detailed than ever.

[r_webb18]

https://www.pcmag.com/article/358604...new-tv-or-wait

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by r_webb18

https://www.pcmag.com/article/358604...new-tv-or-wait

That's a nicely written and easy to understand article. Even for a layperson.

I do have issue with mentioning HDR10+, and leaving out Dolby Vision. DoVi or it's successor should look spectacular in 8K.

[Geoff D]

8K UHD BD recorders soon to come to Japan: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bda-ces-201801304539.htm

Blu-ray itself started life as a recordable system out in the far east with the discs held inside a caddy so it's no wonder the Japanese have wanted UHD BD recorders too, they sure do love their timeshifting out there. That it can do 8K recording as well as 4K comes as no great surprise, but with only being able to put 30mins onto a disc (bit-starved broadcast at that) then that highlights the need for 8K to have a new storage format if it's ever to reach physical disc as a commercially-replicated high-quality system.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

8K UHD BD recorders soon to come to Japan: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bda-ces-201801304539.htm

Blu-ray itself started life as a recordable system out in the far east with the discs held inside a caddy so it's no wonder the Japanese have wanted UHD BD recorders too, they sure do love their timeshifting out there. That it can do 8K recording as well as 4K comes as no great surprise, but with only being able to put 30mins onto a disc (bit-starved broadcast at that) then that highlights the need for 8K to have a new storage format if it's ever to reach physical disc as a commercially-replicated high-quality system.

I recall this tidbit about using a UHD recorder from several months ago concerning that. It’s not the example that 8 k technology is really advancing, just a way to capture some limited 8 k footage.

A triple-layer recordable BDXL disc can hold up to 100Gb, while a quad-layer version can reach 128Gb of storage. This is more than sufficient for storing HD broadcasts, and should even accomodate 4K and 8K broadcast footage.