The Official Pioneer Elite 21/23/25/27 Receivers Thread

[Steve]

Thanks for the thorough response Forsberg. I was partially right and partially wrong in my way of thinking. I was right in that I understood the difference between the crossover and the LPF of the LFE. However I was wrong in thinking that anything above the LPF of the LFE would be sent to the mains. I didn't realize I was losing information by setting my LFE at 80Hz. I always just thought it was going to the mains. The issue that may be a possibility for me is that my sub is not in the front. It's in a back corner, and as StimpsonJCat pointed out, a sub in the front near the mains doesn't produce as much of an issue with being able to localize it. I raised my LPF to 120Hz and will play with it some to see if I'm able to localize the sub. Unfortunately in my room, moving the sub is not an option. It's in the only place in the room where it'll fit.

Knowing what you just explained, it is odd that Pioneer made their receivers where you can't set the crossover and LPF of LFE differently.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Technically not fireman, as the LFE signal only goes up to 120Hz anyway. Most people set theirs at 120Hz, so setting it at 150Hz is really the same as 120hz when you think of it.

What stinks is with this setting at 150Hz you would get absolutely no low end being pumped out from your fronts......

Fors wouldn't it be a little bit of a better compromise to set the crossover at 100Hz then instead of 80 so its in the middle between where the sub really should be (120Hz) and where the speaker should be (100Hz)? That way your still getting everything up to the 100Hz mark from the LFE channel and your not losing anything from the speakers since it would still be sent to the sub if it goes below 100Hz.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Fors wouldn't it be a little bit of a better compromise to set the crossover at 100Hz then instead of 80 so its in the middle between where the sub really should be (120Hz) and where the speaker should be (100Hz)? That way your still getting everything up to the 100Hz mark from the LFE channel and your not losing anything from the speakers since it would still be sent to the sub if it goes below 100Hz.

IMO, once you get up to about 100Hz, you not really getting anything notable in the low end. Let's face it, we are not too worried about the sub being able to handle anything much above 40Hz (give or take), it's the lower end of the range where a sub seperates itself as a pretender or contender. We don't rely on our subs to handle the upper end of the LFE, so why let it into this scenario? (However if we could set the crossovers seperately, I am all for 120Hz mind you...but the Elite's just don't let us.)

I feel that allowing the sub to handle only the frequencies at 80Hz and below is a good compromise, since I know I have speakers that can easily deal with a low frequency range of 80hz to 120Hz, so why not use them as such? Letting your sub handle the frequencies in the 80hz to 100Hz range would not have much, if any, audible effect if you ask me.....so I like to give the speakers some exercise and let them handle some of the work too.

[Steve]

LOL Fors you've been changing your avatar so fast lately it's getting kind of hard to keep up with you. I do like the one you're using now though (and the last one).



Anyway, it sounds like ultimately you're not too bothered by losing the stuff between 80 and 120Hz.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

IMO, once you get up to about 100Hz, you not really getting anything notable in the low end. Let's face it, we are not too worried about the sub being able to handle anything much above 40Hz (give or take), it's the lower end of the range where a sub seperates itself as a pretender or contender. We don't rely on our subs to handle the upper end of the LFE, so why let it into this scenario? (However if we could set the crossovers seperately, I am all for 120Hz mind you...but the Elite's just don't let us.)

I feel that allowing the sub to handle only the frequencies at 80Hz and below is a good compromise, since I know I have speakers that can easily deal with a low frequency range of 80hz to 120Hz, so why not use them as such? Letting your sub handle the frequencies in the 80hz to 100Hz range would not have much, if any, audible effect if you ask me.....so I like to give the speakers some exercise and let them handle some of the work too.

Okay I agree now that you put it that way. I guess i'll stick with 80Hz, I should be able to test it out this weekend with some blu's

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Okay I agree now that you put it that way. I guess i'll stick with 80Hz, I should be able to test it out this weekend with some blu's

I kind of feel the same way. Especially since I've been running my LPF at 80 Hz all along. It's not like anything will change in the crossover/LPF settings for me when I get my Elite.

[mywxrld]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Fors I agree after setting it up last nigth thats the only gripe I really have with the unit, I set the crossover to 150Hz like you suggested and it sounds great. I do think the Onkyo's are a little easier to setup since pioneer's manual is 123 pages long but that just means there are more options to tweak which is a good thing.

I was a little confused about how to know if which MCACC to run the Full auto, Auto or Manual. But I think I figured it out you have to run Full auto or Auto to be able to go into the Manual and mess with any settings to customize it by using the SPL meter is that correct?

The only other complication I ran into was when I ran Auto MCACC it kept saying my left surround POLK FXI3 was reverse phase when is wasn't. I checked the speaker cable and the back of the pioneer where I plugged the banana plugs in at and they were correct. I just figure it had something to do with the placement and that the FXI3's are bipolar.

I don't think it has anything to do with your speakers because when I ran the MCACC it told me the same thing. The differance is I have some cheap ONKYO HTiB speakers for my sourrounds. Both of my surrounds are technically in a corner so I am starting to wonder if there is something with the MCACC software or something. (BTW I have the VSX-23TXH receiver)

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by mywxrld

I don't think it has anything to do with your speakers because when I ran the MCACC it told me the same thing. The differance is I have some cheap ONKYO HTiB speakers for my sourrounds. Both of my surrounds are technically in a corner so I am starting to wonder if there is something with the MCACC software or something. (BTW I have the VSX-23TXH receiver)

I still believe that there is probably some kind of reflection where the speaker is located and the mic is not properly picking up on the test tone like it should. To test this, move this particular surround speaker to another location (anywhere in the room just for the sake of testing it, and see if you get the same result with MCACC.)

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by mywxrld

I don't think it has anything to do with your speakers because when I ran the MCACC it told me the same thing. The differance is I have some cheap ONKYO HTiB speakers for my sourrounds. Both of my surrounds are technically in a corner so I am starting to wonder if there is something with the MCACC software or something. (BTW I have the VSX-23TXH receiver)

Thats weird I figured it was the bipolar speakers since the shoot sound in both directions not just straight forward. I guess It must just be corners of the room, I guess I can say for sure thats what it is since my right surround sound speaker isn't in a corner and it doesn't make the MCACC say that its reverse phase

I have another question for you Fors do you always use pure direct? Sometimes I've noticed it will switch to one of the other ones like AUTO or ALC and i always switch it back to Pure Direct is this the best one to use?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Thats weird I figured it was the bipolar speakers since the shoot sound in both directions not just straight forward. I guess It must just be corners of the room, I guess I can say for sure thats what it is since my right surround sound speaker isn't in a corner and it doesn't make the MCACC say that its reverse phase

I have another question for you Fors do you always use pure direct? Sometimes I've noticed it will switch to one of the other ones like AUTO or ALC and i always switch it back to Pure Direct is this the best one to use?

I would be curious to see what would happen if you reversed phase on that one speaker and ran the MCACC again (assuming of course that this wouldn't damage your speaker). I've heard of speakers having an internal crossover or driver wired out of phase, etc.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by fireman325

I would be curious to see what would happen if you reversed phase on that one speaker and ran the MCACC again (assuming of course that this wouldn't damage your speaker). I've heard of speakers having an internal crossover or driver wired out of phase, etc.

I would try it but as you said I'm not sure if it would damage the speaker or not. And I don't really wanna risk it. I'm sure its just a quirk with the Speaker's placement and MCACC.

[gamebred]

I am now a proud owner of a SC-25 and a Pioneer receiver in general. I have auditioned them quite a few times throughout the years but have never owned one. So I have just a quick question.....I was just curious as to how high do you guys usually have the master volume with your Elites? I just noticed that I had to really crank my SC-25 up to about -17 to -10 to get where it matched my HK 154 at about -25. Mind you, the HK puts out about 30 wpc whereas the SC claims 140 wpc. Just seems like at -30 this receiver should be pushing the hell out of these Klipsch SLs. These are very effecient speakers and are driven very easily. Obviously these two receivers aren't level matched but I always assumed that pushing a receiver to "0" was maxxing it out. Am I wrong in this thinking? I just feel that I could easily crank it up to "0" with these speakers.

I still have alot of tweaking to do, as I just fooled around with it for the first time for about 45 minutes. There seems to be alot of features and it can be quite overwhelming at first.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by gamebred

I am now a proud owner of a SC-25 and a Pioneer receiver in general. I have auditioned them quite a few times throughout the years but have never owned one. So I have just a quick question.....I was just curious as to how high do you guys usually have the master volume with your Elites? I just noticed that I had to really crank my SC-25 up to about -17 to -10 to get where it matched my HK 154 at about -25. Mind you, the HK puts out about 30 wpc whereas the SC claims 140 wpc. Just seems like at -30 this receiver should be pushing the hell out of these Klipsch SLs. These are very effecient speakers and are driven very easily. Obviously these two receivers aren't level matched but I always assumed that pushing a receiver to "0" was maxxing it out. Am I wrong in this thinking? I just feel that I could easily crank it up to "0" with these speakers.

I still have alot of tweaking to do, as I just fooled around with it for the first time for about 45 minutes. There seems to be alot of features and it can be quite overwhelming at first.

Run MCACC to get it initially set-up. It will set the delays, levels, etc... as it sounds like they need adjustment, and MCACC will take care of this for you. Try this and come back to us with where the master volume comes in at. You shouldn't have to push it up to -17db's to get a "regular" volume, that's for sure.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Thats weird I figured it was the bipolar speakers since the shoot sound in both directions not just straight forward. I guess It must just be corners of the room, I guess I can say for sure thats what it is since my right surround sound speaker isn't in a corner and it doesn't make the MCACC say that its reverse phase

I have another question for you Fors do you always use pure direct? Sometimes I've noticed it will switch to one of the other ones like AUTO or ALC and i always switch it back to Pure Direct is this the best one to use?

I use Auto/Direct, but I have not noticed any switching going on. I will only switch to some kind of matrixing when I want to run all 7 channels. Other than that, I leave it there.

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I use Auto/Direct, but I have not noticed any switching going on. I will only switch to some kind of matrixing when I want to run all 7 channels. Other than that, I leave it there.

Is there any difference between Auto Direct & Pure Direct?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jruc03

Is there any difference between Auto Direct & Pure Direct?

Pure Direct - Is for Analog and 2 channel PCM sources as they are heard without any digital processing.

Auto Direct (or just Direct) - Sources are heard acording to the settings made in your surround set-up (which is the speaker settings, channel level, speaker distance, acoustic calbration EQ and the X-curve.) You will hear sources according to the # of channels in the signal (7.1 for example.)

[jruc03]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Pure Direct - Is for Analog and 2 channel PCM sources as they are heard without any digital processing.

Auto Direct (or just Direct) - Sources are heard acording to the settings made in your surround set-up (which is the speaker settings, channel level, speaker distance, acoustic calbration EQ and the X-curve.) You will hear sources according to the # of channels in the signal (7.1 for example.)

Okay so i'll make sure its set to Direct instead of Pure Direct, thats weird though because i've watched a few tv shows with pure direct and I was still getting DD 5.1 from OTA television instead of 2ch.

[gamebred]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Run MCACC to get it initially set-up. It will set the delays, levels, etc... as it sounds like they need adjustment, and MCACC will take care of this for you. Try this and come back to us with where the master volume comes in at. You shouldn't have to push it up to -17db's to get a "regular" volume, that's for sure.

Ok, ran the MCACC and did some of my own tweaking here and there. Much better now. I can still push it to -17 to -10 but it's more on a theatrical level then. -25 up to -22 sounds quite well for everyday listening while still retaining good bass and clarity with quiet dialog. I fooled with the X-curve and managed to tame the highs with these horn loaded speakers. Funny how MCACC wanted to set my center and mains as "Large"..... What's even funnier is it sounded much better than when I set them to small. I'm not even going to start debating this as my ears have already made thier minds up. lol

As far as BD (via PS3) decoding goes, would you recommend letting the receiver decode the audio through bitstream or let the PS3 do the work through LPCM? I read a few threads already debating this and it seemed to be 50/50, so I'm still a bit unsure which method would be best. I tried both ways and still can't decide which sounds better. Right now I'm sending the info via bitstream and letting this sexy beast pull duty.

There's quite a bit of features on this thing...enough to keep me tweaking for a hot minute. I don't care much for the user manual, it's not the easiest to comprehend....thanks Pioneer. I'm learning more just playing with the menu and all these little buttons. I figure I could always bug the hell out of you guys too.

[Fors*]

Sounds like a winner. Make sure when you re-run MCACC as you calibrate the settings when you get up to Calibration EQ and Advanced MCACC, and that you save the previous settings. This way if you don't like what you change to, you can simply go back to the previous setting and keep it or start over again. It can save up to 6 settings, so you can have loads of fun as you know!

If you are still a bit unimpressed with the sound from your speakers, you could invest in an SPL meter.... quite a few of the members here use them a lot.

Have fun!

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by JackHoW

Are you sure about the 120Hz? I'm not too sure about it...

I can only speak of the SC-05, but the crossover is set at either 80Hz, 100Hz or it jumps to 150Hz....so 120Hz is not an option. Therefore, I use 80Hz instead. It allows the fronts to push the 80Hz to the 120Hz range of the LFE, and lets the sub do the low end stuff below 80Hz. I am a believer though of getting the full LFE to the sub, but the SC-05's universal crossover does not have that setting, so I settled on 80Hz, instead.