A Guide to Home Theater Audio CODECs

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by jdc115

Thanks, you do great work. Now if you could just get me Denon 4311 out here for me I could try it

Give me your credit card information and I will buy it. You may never see it, but I will send you my current Denon 4308ci receiver to keep you happy.

[LordoftheRings]

So far, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 seems to be the real deal!
And that Denon AVR-4311CI receiver is a a sweet one all around.

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Give me your credit card information and I will buy it. You may never see it, but I will send you my current Denon 4308ci receiver to keep you happy.

Sure.. Check your PM

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

So far, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 seems to be the real deal!
And that Denon AVR-4311CI receiver is a a sweet one all around.

Yes, I think I still have to wait about 1 month before it releases over here. I really am looking forward to it


PS: BigDaddy, just kidding I will wait for the new one to release

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by jdc115

Yes, I think I still have to wait about 1 month before it releases over here. I really am looking forward to it


PS: BigDaddy, just kidding I will wait for the new one to release

Keep track of that 4311 from its official thread at AVS. ...Seems to have video issues.

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Keep track of that 4311 from its official thread at AVS. ...Seems to have video issues.

Thanks, I have been reading the thread but I am a few days behind.
Hopefully the receiver just allows video pass through as that is all that I really require. Though I know that is not always the case for some reason.

[Big Daddy]

The questions of Bitstreaming vs LPCM and Multi-Channel Analog vs HDMI connection have been asked too many times. Unfortunately, the responses are not always very accurate and in some cases misleading. I make this post here because there is no room in the original post #1. I will put a link in there for permanent record.

A BASIC GUIDE TO HD AUDIO

HDMI Connection to the Receiver/Processor, Player Set to LPCM

• Decoding of HD audio takes place in the player. All processing and Digital to Analog (D/A) conversion take place in the receiver/processor.
• Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
• The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital).
• The player sends the LPCM signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable.
• The receiver/processor applies all processing and bass management, converts the Digital LPCM signals to Analog signals (D/A chip required).
• The receiver/amplifier amplifies the analog signals and sends them to the speakers.

HDMI Connection to the Receiver/Processor, Player Set to Bitstream (the older PS3 Fat cannot do this for HD audio)

• Decoding of HD audio, all processing, and Digital to Analog conversion take place in the receiver/processor.
• Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
• The player sends the raw unpacked signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable.
• The receiver/processor unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals to LPCM (still digital).
• The receiver/processor applies all processing and bass management, converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required).
• The receiver/amplifier amplifies the analog signals and sends them to the speakers.

Multi-Channel Analog Connection to the Receiver/Processor, Player Set to Analog Output (see section below)

• Decoding of HD audio, all processing, and Digital to Analog conversion take place in the player.
• Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
• The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital).
• The player applies all processing and bass management (usually very limited processing and bass management), converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required).
• The player sends the analog signals to the receiver through the RCA cables.
• The receiver/processor receives the analog signals, redirects them to the amplifiers, the signals are amplified and sent to the speakers.

Which one is better? It all depends on the quality of the chips and circuits in the player and the receiver. The difference between PCM and bitsreaming is minimal (mostly volume difference). In most cases, the D/A chip may have more of an effect on sound quality. Practically, there are several reasons why setting the player to LPCM may be preferred:

1. Some receivers do not have enough processing power. If you set the player to bitstream, the receiver will have to decode the compressed audio and as a result the receiver will not have enough processing power left to do other things. Some receivers may turn off the calibration program such as Audyssey.
2. In the case of SACD, if the player is set to bitstream audio in SACD's native format (DSD), the receiver may not be able to perform Bass Management.
3. Another downside to sending the HD audio codecs in bitstream is that on many players, you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. See the section above.
4. For some players such as the Oppo BD83 player, if you turn the Secondary Audio to On in its menu, it will automatically set the audio to lossy DD or DTS.

MULTI-CHANNEL ANALOG CONNECTION VERSUS HDMI

Too many people associate the word analog (or anlogue) with LP's and record players and automatically (perhaps erroneously) assume that since LP's must sound better than CD's, then anything that has the word analog in it must be better than digital. Not surprisingly, this topic has absolutely nothing to do with the LP versus CD debate or the fact that sound is analog and not digital. The real issue here is where we convert the digitally recorded information on the disc to analog. Is it better to do it in the player or in the processor?

When a disc player is connected to a receiver/processor with multi-channel analog cables, the player must perform digital to analog conversion and send the analog signals to the receiver. In this case, calibration and bass management adjustments such as speaker sizes and channel levels should be done in the player's setup menu or the receiver/processor must have bass management for multi-channel ANALOG inputs. If the player lacks calibration adjustments or the receiver cannot perform adjustments for analog inputs, bass management cannot be performed.

There are several factors to consider if you have a choice about using digital (HDMI cable) or analog cables for lossless surround sound.

1. The first concerns digital signal processing, bass management, and equalization. HDMI connection permits the use of the bass management, DSP, and room equalization in the processor. When you use multi-channel analog cables, bass management has to be performed in the player. Generally, receivers have better digital signal processing tools than players. Although many new players can perform basic bass management, you won't find any equalization settings in players, except for the very expensive high-end players. The settings on most players are pretty rudimentary (only level adjustments and distance settings). So, if you have a room that needs lots of help to sound right, digital HDMI connection will give you better sound than multi-channel analog connection. In almost all pratical cases, analog connection will result in inferior sound.
2. The second factor is the quality of the Digital to Analog Converters (DACs). Most intermediate to high-end AVR's and processors have much better DAC's than average players. Again, there is no reason to believe the quality of analog connection will be better than HDMI.
3. If you use analog connections, you will not be able to use programs such as Dolby PLIIx to matrix the side surround information to the rear surround speakers. This means that you will have to kiss 7.1 audio goodbye and no chance of ever experiencing Dolby PLIIz or Audyssey Height/Wide speakers.
4. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you own an ultra high-end player that has good bass management and equalization. Even in such a situation, getting the sound of a multi-channel analog set-up to be just right can be a little tricky because everything is manual. Just adding the 10dB or 15dB of LFE boost can be a hassle. There will be no help from microphones and calibration programs such as Audyssey (Denon/Marantz/Onkyo), MCACC (Pioneer), YPAO (Yamaha), Sony’s DCAC (Digital Cinema Auto Calibration), or other auto-calibration software.

There is also another issue that needs to be addressed. Some people may be under the impression that setting their processor to receive audio in Direct or Pure Direct results in superior sound. In most cases, these options may bypass bass management and room equalization, two of the most important features available on modern processors. I have to strongly emphasize that in most likelihood, the benefits of Bass Management/Equalization tailored to your room will far outweigh any small advantage that a pure direct signal path may offer.

[BIslander]

Another excellent post. If I might, though, I recommend inserting a bullet point in each of the connection scenarios at the top of the post identifying where and when the post-decoding processing occurs.

[LordoftheRings]

^

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Another excellent post. If I might, though, I recommend inserting a bullet point in each of the connection scenarios at the top of the post identifying where and when the post-decoding processing occurs.

Thank you. I added a bullet to each section explaining where the decoding of HD audio and D/A take place. Is this what you had in mind?

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Thank you. I added a bullet to each section explaining where the decoding of HD audio and D/A take place. Is this what you had in mind?

I believe that's exactly what BIslander had in mind.

Thank you Big Daddy!

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Thank you. I added a bullet to each section explaining where the decoding of HD audio and D/A take place. Is this what you had in mind?

I should have been more clear. I mean speaker configurations and the processing after decoding such as bass management, distance adjustments, EQ/room correction, and the application of DSPs.

• With bitstream, the receiver decodes, processes, and does the DAC.
• With PCM, the player decodes, the receiver processes and converts.
• With analog, the player does all three.

[LordoftheRings]

Looks good to me now!

[IagoguleBR]

Hello, I currently possess and enjoy the Sony BDP-S360 and the HT-Muteki DDW7000 with 7.2 channels, as my setup to watch my Blu-ray movies.

As the Muteki does not decode HD audio (at least not my model) and this function is given by the player from Sony as far as I know, it decodes the HD codecs as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD and goes through the Receiver with this function.

I wonder if with this configuration I can enjoy the best of my audio HD movies without any loss (lossless) and for those with the BDP-S360, if could tell me how to configure it for my situation!

Sorry for my BAD English!

Grateful for the help
Iago M. Armelin

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by IagoguleBR

Hello, I currently possess and enjoy the Sony BDP-S360 and the HT-Muteki DDW7000 with 7.2 channels, as my setup to watch my Blu-ray movies.

As the Muteki does not decode HD audio (at least not my model) and this function is given by the player from Sony as far as I know, it decodes the HD codecs as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD and goes through the Receiver with this function.

I wonder if with this configuration I can enjoy the best of my audio HD movies without any loss (lossless) and for those with the BDP-S360, if could tell me how to configure it for my situation!

Sorry for my BAD English!

Grateful for the help
Iago M. Armelin

If your receiver has HDMI input, connect the player to the receiver with an HDMI cable and go inside the menu of the player and set it to output audio in LPCM. As long as your receiver has HDMI input, it should give you HD audio.

If your receiver does not have HDMI input, you should use an optical or digital coaxial cable to connect the player to to the receiver. In that case, go inside the menu of the player and set it to output audio in bitstream. Although with this configuration, you will get the older Dolby Digital and DTS Digital, both of them are encoded on blu-ray disc in higher bitrates and their quality is almost as good as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

Edit: Apparently, many Sony players, including the BDP-S360 do not have the option to change PCM/bitstream setting and use the HDMI handshake to determine which way to decode HD Audio. In most cases, HDMI audio should be set to Auto and the secondary audio should be turned off by setting BD Audio to Direct instead of mix.

[BIslander]

Like many Sony players, the S360 does not have a PCM/bitstream setting. It uses the HDMI handshake to decide whether to decode for PCM output or bitstream for receiver decoding.

Use these three settings:
Audio Output Priority = HDMI
Audio HDMI = Auto
BD Audio = Direct

BD Audio = Mix (the default) forces player decoding and mixes in secondary audio. However, while the S360 will decode TrueHD when set to Mix, it falls back to lossy DTS instead of decoding dts-MA.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Like many Sony players, the S360 does not have a PCM/bitstream setting. It uses the HDMI handshake to decide whether to decode for PCM output or bitstream for receiver decoding.

Use these three settings:
Audio Output Priority = HDMI
Audio HDMI = Auto
BD Audio = Direct

BD Audio = Mix (the default) forces player decoding and mixes in secondary audio. However, while the S360 will decode TrueHD when set to Mix, it falls back to lossy DTS instead of decoding dts-MA.

So BIslander, that means if your receiver can decode the new high res audio, you cannot choose PCM anymore from those Sony BD players?

* You would need an older receiver with HDMI v1.2 in order for those Sony BD players to output multichannel PCM from their HDMI output? Am I right?

Thanks,
Bob

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

So BIslander, that means if your receiver can decode the new high res audio, you cannot choose PCM anymore from those Sony BD players?

* You would need an older receiver with HDMI v1.2 in order for those Sony BD players to output multichannel PCM from their HDMI output? Am I right?

Thanks,
Bob

I do not have any experience with Sony Blu-ray players.

Any version of HDMI can carry LPCM signals. The v1.2 classification applies to SACD and DSD.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

So BIslander, that means if your receiver can decode the new high res audio, you cannot choose PCM anymore from those Sony BD players?

Correct, for the most part. With many of its players, Sony let the handshake determine whether to decode or bitstream. So, if you have a receiver that has lossless decoders but can't apply room correction or PLIIx when decoding, you are out of luck because the player will always bitstream based on the HDMI handshake.

You can always use Mix to force player decoding. But, the S360 and several other models released around that time cannot decode dts-MA while mixing secondary audio. So, with those players, Mix means lossy much of the time. Fortunately, more recent models can do lossless decoding when mixing.

You would need an older receiver with HDMI v1.2 in order for those Sony BD players to output multichannel PCM from their HDMI output? Am I right?

Any receiver without lossless decoders will do. The version of HDMI doesn't matter.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Correct, for the most part. With many of its players, Sony let the handshake determine whether to decode or bitstream. So, if you have a receiver that has lossless decoders but can't apply room correction or PLIIx when decoding, you are out of luck because the player will always bitstream based on the HDMI handshake.

You can always use Mix to force player decoding. But, the S360 and several other models released around that time cannot decode dts-MA while mixing secondary audio. So, with those players, Mix means lossy much of the time. Fortunately, more recent models can do lossless decoding when mixing.

Any receiver without lossless decoders will do. The version of HDMI doesn't matter.

Thanks Bislander, I just learned something new!

* Oh, I just mentioned HDMI v1.2 because this version and anything lower cannot decode the new high res audio codecs. ...And 99.775% of version 1.3 can.