Fantasia / Fantasia 2000 (1940-1999) (Special Edition)

[JavaJulien]

Rhapsody in Blue was my personal favorite segment in the movie, partly because I loved the different style and it was my favorite song in the movie.

[PuppyJonathan]

Originally Posted by JavaJulien

Rhapsody in Blue was my personal favorite segment in the movie, partly because I loved the different style and it was my favorite song in the movie.

That and Pomp and Circumstances were the best in Fantasia 2000. Of course I honestly feel Sorcerer's Apprentice is best in both movies

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

That and Pomp and Circumstances were the best in Fantasia 2000. Of course I honestly feel Sorcerer's Apprentice is best in both movies

You guys are killing me.

Form 1st to Worst

Firebird
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Pines of Rome
Rhapsody in Blue
Beethoven's 5th
Pomp and Circumstance
Carnival of the Animals
Piano Concerto # 2 in F-Major ("The Steadfast Tin Soldier Adaptation")

[zafisher94]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

You guys are killing me.

Form 1st to Worst

Firebird
The Sorcerer's Apprentice
Pines of Rome
Rhapsody in Blue
Beethoven's 5th
Pomp and Circumstance
Carnival of the Animals
Piano Concerto # 2 in F-Major ("The Steadfast Tin Soldier Adaptation")

is that from a technical "best" standpoint or your favorite? or are they one in the same?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by zafisher94

is that from a technical "best" standpoint or your favorite? or are they one in the same?

No, that's a best ranking...the "Tin Soldier" piece is well-done, it just isn't a Fantasia sequence. The music plays as underscore to the visuals, when the visuals are supposed to come *from* the music. It's the same mistake they made with the Pastoral in the 1st Fantasia. I can even quote the lead animator who complained he had to find his own beats outside of the music to make the planned action attempt to sync with the music. That's putting the cart before the horse. What happened was that Roy used to play that song for one of his young children or grandchildren (I think he called it Abby's bounce-bounce music or something like that, I'm not at home so I don't have access to my archives). While doing research for F2K, they found the Walt team's storyboards for Tin Soldier. Roy played Abby's Bounce Bounce Music underneath it and everyone thought they fit. Well, they really didn't. It might be a charming short on it's own, but as a Fantasia sequence where the visuals are supposed to be an imaginative illustration of music, it's a total failure. The visuals are supposed to come FROM the music. That's the whole point of the Fantasia experiment, it should never be the other way around.

Carnival of the Animals may be a slight bit of fluff, but it can't be criticized for not trying to hit every musical beat, or trying to illustrate musical ideas. Piano Concerto #2 is a great short, it just isn't worthy to call itself a part of Fantasia. Even if Abby liked to bounce to it on Roy's knee.

[zafisher94]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

No, that's a best ranking...the "Tin Soldier" piece is well-done, it just isn't a Fantasia sequence. The music plays as underscore to the visuals, when the visuals are supposed to come *from* the music. It's the same mistake they made with the Pastoral in the 1st Fantasia. I can even quote the lead animator who complained he had to find his own beats outside of the music to make the planned action attempt to sync with the music. That's putting the cart before the horse. What happened was that Roy used to play that song for one of his young children or grandchildren (I think he called it Abby's bounce-bounce music or something like that, I'm not at home so I don't have access to my archives). While doing research for F2K, they found the Walt team's storyboards for Tin Soldier. Roy played Abby's Bounce Bounce Music underneath it and everyone thought they fit. Well, they really didn't. It might be a charming short on it's own, but as a Fantasia sequence where the visuals are supposed to be an imaginative illustration of music, it's a total failure.

Carnival of the Animals may be a slight bit of fluff, but it can't be criticized for not trying to hit every musical beat, or trying to illustrate musical ideas. Piano Concerto #2 is a great short, it just isn't worthy to call itself a part of Fantasia. Even if Abby liked to bounce to it on Roy's knee.

good point. mine was just what sequences I enjoyed most. but you're certainly correct that it defies the Fantasia rule.

[yumny]

Originally Posted by zafisher94

good point. mine was just what sequences I enjoyed most. but you're certainly correct that it defies the Fantasia rule.

It's like on of the posters here said, Fantasia should be about visualizing the music, not playing a direct narritive with the music as "soundtrack". Therefore my ranking of the 2000 shorts is as follows;

7. Steadfast Tin Soldier - Once more, too much narrative in an uninteresting story and lacked artistry.
6. Pomp and Circumstance - while pretty and colorful, setting a piece to this music was an unfortunate choice and it's not experimental or pretty enough to compensate.
5. The Carnival of the Animals - Way too short and should have been less comedic / cartoonish.
4. Pines of Rome - too strong a narrative (baby loses it's parents) that had too little to do with the music, although with a magnificent finale as compensation.
3. Beethoven's Fifth - a blend between trying to be artistic and keeping to the spirit of the real Fantasia, and again trying to pop in a narrative.
2. Firebird Suite - Now this was beautiful, experimental and perfectly timed. Not to mention the Miyazaki influences, this was delightful, scary and massively good. I'm glad they closed down on this because this almost manages to equal Bald Mountain in intensity.
1. Rhapsody in Blue - Like the Firebird Suite, a really experimental short with a lot of heart and spirit. Despite it's overbearing narrative it was a really freely artistic and wonderful short. Fit in seamlessly.

[PuppyJonathan]

I'm just throwing diesel in the fire here, but you know why I didn't find Fantasia 2000 as impressive as the first? Computers. Watching the original it is astondishing how beautiful the animation and the scenery is, mostly all hand down (except for some of the special effects) but in Fantasia 2000 they didn't use anything impressive for the computers, like giant scenery or things you really couldn't do in traditional, but instead it was used as a tool for the hand drawn and not to make unique artwork

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

I'm just throwing diesel in the fire here, but you know why I didn't find Fantasia 2000 as impressive as the first? Computers. Watching the original it is astondishing how beautiful the animation and the scenery is, mostly all hand down (except for some of the special effects) but in Fantasia 2000 they didn't use anything impressive for the computers, like giant scenery or things you really couldn't do in traditional, but instead it was used as a tool for the hand drawn and not to make unique artwork

You know, that's not it for me.

You guys ever hear about the Scopes Monkey Trial? A school teacher was briefly detained because he introduced the idea of evolution to his students. He never served any real jail time, but the case became a media circus. You know what year that happened? 1925.

So, 15 years later, here comes Walt Disney flying in the face of all film and social conventions, demonstrating the theory of evolution via animation, showcasing the first truly abstract American animation in the Toccata and Fugue, creating a short in which sweet all-American Mickey Mouse becomes his own worst enemy (and unintentionally creating a powerful allegory for the coming nuclear age), smash-cutting the profane against the scared...Fantasia had balls of steel. Fantasia wasn't JUST about images and music. Fantasia made a statement about animation and all that animation could be, with every sequence. It was a shocking, revolutionary piece of work, and it was fearless. It challenged you to keep up with it, it challenged you to accept its ideas.

Fantasia/2000, by contrast, I hate to say it, plays like a cheapquel. Every single sequence has a story, every single sequence has a happy ending, even the abstraction. Walking out of the Los Anglese IMAX tent built for the premiere, I wrote down "It's the Disney version of Disney". Fantasia 2000 is as safe as you could possobly imagine, and that's what I missed. Fantasia should piss people off, it should give them license to laugh at ballet, it should challenge peoples ideas of what ballet means, it should make people feel stupid when watching abstract art, it should scare children right out of the theater and send the righteous to Church. THAT'S Fantasia.

Fantasia 2000? Exceptional technique, some worthy attempts. But safe. Very safe. And therefore boring for people not really into technique. And one of the sequences doesn't even work as an entry in the experiment.

I enjoy what they did, I'm just saying it's not too far removed from what Disney would have done if they had decided to make it a DTV cheapquel. It's safe. It's the modern Disney version of Walt Disney, all the hard edges scrubbed off, anything controversial removed. It's very, very safe. You can't say that about any sequence in the 1940 version, which rattled cages and discarded all previous form and function.

Anyway, have to go to bed.

You guys are killing me.

EDIT

Why are you guys killing me? Because my wife is going to kick my ass because y'all are making me stay up late when I should be sleeping. Dammit.

[yumny]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

"It's the Disney version of Disney". Fantasia 2000 is as safe as you could possobly imagine, and that's what I missed. Fantasia should piss people off.

This is brilliant.
That's why I hate it when companies start playing on the safe side.

[PuppyJonathan]

Originally Posted by yumny

This is brilliant.
That's why I hate it when companies start playing on the safe side.

True, when Walt was alive, he aimed his products at everyone and not just families or children. He knew not to sell an audience short. And sorry if I caused so much stress to you Ernest, I'm not heading back to this thread unless positive things come up about both movies, and to be fair I really don't like complaining that much

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

True, when Walt was alive, he aimed his products at everyone and not just families or children. He knew not to sell an audience short. And sorry if I caused so much stress to you Ernest, I'm not heading back to this thread unless positive things come up about both movies, and to be fair I really don't like complaining that much

No, no, no, please contribute, I only say you guys are kiling me because my wife knows that when I get going there's no stopping me, and it's three in the morning already, and she's not going to be sympathetic when we need to get things done tomorrow and I'm going to wind up griping about how tired I am because I can't help myself from responding to you guys.

So please respond, don't worry about me. Just making a joke.

Sort of.

[yumny]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

No, no, no, please contribute, I only say you guys are kiling me because my wife knows that when I get going there's no stopping me, and it's three in the morning already, and she's not going to be sympathetic when we need to get things done tomorrow and I'm going to wind up griping about how tired I am because I can't help myself from responding to you guys.

So please respond, don't worry about me. Just making a joke.

Sort of.

Sorry, didn't realize that. It's 10:43 AM here and I have a day off.

[Ernest Rister]

Yup. 5 hours of sleep, and I'm a groomsmen in a wedding. Have to run around doing errands all day, and now I'm tired and massively super grumpy.

Must...stop...posting...at....3:00 a.m.....

EDIT

And Fantasia was threatened with a Creationist Boycott back in 1940 because of the Rite of Spring sequence. Disney initially planned to follow evolution all the way up to the rise of man, by the way. That's what's so great about Fantasia. If you try and put yourself in the mind-space of a theater-goer in 1940, the movie is shocking. Stereo and surround sound, abstract animation, evolution, Mickey and the axe, naked vampire harpies, piercing satire of ballet tropes...we take it all for granted now because we're all so familiar with it. Imagine seenig it in 1940, though, and how gobsmacked you'd be just from hearing the audio, and then here comes Walt with those sequences like Bald Mountain and The Rite of Spring and Tocatta and Fugue. No wonder critics were stunned and dazed by it. "One of the most strange and beautiful things to have happened in the world", etc.

[zafisher94]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Yup. 5 hours of sleep, and I'm a groomsmen in a wedding. Have to run around doing errands all day, and now I'm tired and massively super grumpy.

Must...stop...posting...at....3:00 a.m.....

Well good luck and hope you have a good time. I as well must learn to refrain from posting during the twilight hours, but who can resist with such intriguing discussions and views.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by zafisher94

Well good luck and hope you have a good time. I as well must learn to refrain from posting during the twilight hours, but who can resist with such intriguing discussions and views.

I know. This site is like tequila. It's a joy and a privilege, but you pay for it the next day.

[yumny]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

And Fantasia was threatened with a Creationist Boycott back in 1940 because of the Rite of Spring sequence. Disney initially planned to follow evolution all the way up to the rise of man, by the way. That's what's so great about Fantasia. If you try and put yourself in the mind-space of a theater-goer in 1940, the movie is shocking. Stereo and surround sound, abstract animation, evolution, Mickey and the axe, naked vampire harpies, piercing satire of ballet tropes...we take it all for granted now because we're all so familiar with it. Imagine seenig it in 1940, though, and how gobsmacked you'd be just from hearing the audio, and then here comes Walt with those sequences like Bald Mountain and The Rite of Spring and Tocatta and Fugue. No wonder critics were stunned and dazed by it. "One of the most strange and beautiful things to have happened in the world", etc.

Though I love the film I can also see why critics at the time ripped it a new one for being too pretentious. To them Fantasia probably seemed like it had shock value for the sake of shock value, was challenging christian values to seem modern, and was trying to make classical music popular again to the masses by selling it under a Disney Animation brand.

Jeesh I'm starting to sound like a 1940s critic myself..

[PuppyJonathan]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I know. This site is like tequila. It's a joy and a privilege, but you pay for it the next day.

So how was the wedding?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan

So how was the wedding?

Bachelor party tonight. Rehearsal tomorrow. Wedding saturday.

I had antelope at the Bachelor party tonight. I never shy away from tasting new foods, because we only spin around the sun a few times and I try to make the most of it. Bachelor party was at a German brewhaus north of San Antonio, and they had Antelope on the menu.

Incredibly delicious. Amazing. Better than Texas Venison.

[PuppyJonathan]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Bachelor party tonight. Rehearsal tomorrow. Wedding saturday.

I had antelope at the Bachelor party tonight. I never shy away from tasting new foods, because we only spin around the sun a few times and I try to make the most of it. Bachelor party was at a German brewhaus north of San Antonio, and they had Antelope on the menu.

Incredibly delicious. Amazing. Better than Texas Venison.

Oh ok