Message to Indian Studios on subs (via Bollywood blu-ray)

[syncguy]

Hi Bollywood blu-ray,

If you have links with Bollywood/Indian studios, please pass this important message to all studios about subtitle positioning.

Correct placement of subtitles is one of the key factors to the success of Bollywood blu-rays and take-up. Since 16:9 wide screen TV sets have black bars for scope movies, manufacturers have started producing and pushing 21:9 super-widescreen-TVs. These will not produce black bars for scope movies. Almost all Bollywood movies are scope and these movies produce blackbars on current 16:9 widescreen sets. Future 21:9 super-wide-TVs would be a perfect fit for the Bollywood movies. The first models will be released in Europe in June by Philips. Check these links:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/article....&id=1236252154
http://www.grobi.tv/seiten/neuigkeit...ilips21-9.html

(Note that Philips showcased the first 16:9 wide screen TV many years ago.)

If the subtitles are, fully or partially, on the black bars, these super-wide-TVs cannot display the subtitles. This is the case for the currently available scope-projection systems which are gaining popularity – they do not have black bars, so black-bar subtitles cannot be read.

Also wish to note that there are millions of people who hate black bars and they zoom the picture so that scope movies would fill their 16:9 wide screen TVs. While it is arguable whether this practice is right or wrong, it is their choice and that is the way these millions of people would like to watch scope movies on their 16:9 wide screen sets. If the subtitles are on the black bars, these zoomers (potentially 100s of millions) cannot read the subtitles. Therefore placing subtitles on blackbars will certainly alienate these people and would be a problem for wide scale take-up of subtitled foreign movies. The commercial implications of this matter are significant and Bollywood blu-rays could miss out a large market segment if subtitles are placed on the black bars.

The good news So, far Eros and Ayngaran blu-rays have correctly placed the subtitles within the picture frame (no part of the subtitles are on the black bars). I wish to see a continuation of this practice. After all, theatrical releases place subtitles within the picture - no black bars in the theater!

This issue has been widely discussed on this forum as well as other major AV forums in the US and UK. The psychological affects of placing subtitles on black bars and the scientific reasons for millions of people hating horizontal-blackbars are widely discussed - blackbar subtitles will really upset these people as they would be forced to look at the black bars (or the black void) while they are trying to forget about this black void (which shouldn't be there since it is not part of the movie).

Please pass this important message to all Indian studios. They have done well so far - expect to see a continuation of this trend. Just in case, if a studio is wishing to have subtitles on black bars, they can include two subtitle tracks: one on the black bar and the other within the picture frame so that the user can select the preferred subtitle track. This is the most effective and easiest solution available to-date to fix this ugly problem. It takes only few more clicks in the blu-ray authoring program to do this and the effort required is negligible if done at the authoring stage.

There is no technology available to-date, to move or reposition the "raster image" based subs used by all (Bollywood and Hollywood) studios. This is a significant issue in blu-ray specs development. Blu-specs also prohibits player manufacturers to develop a solution by protecting the subtitled video path. There are player-based solutions to move DVD subtitles!

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

thanks a buddy will look ionto your info and see wht we can do .

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Bollywood Blu-ray

thanks a buddy will look ionto your info and see wht we can do .

Thanks very much. Please pass the full message to the top management (preferably CEO level) of ALL Indian studios as this matter has significant commercial implications for the movies need subtitles. Let them make a conscious decision after considering the facts. Most likely Eros and Ayngaran already knows about this big issue since all their blu-ray releases (OSO, Heyy Babyy, Shivaji, Villu, Billa) have subtitles within the picture. They have already done the right thing - it looks like more than a coincidence.

There is no player-based technology solution available for blu-ray to shift widely used raster-image based subtitles since this possibility is deliberately jeopardized by the specification. To make the blu-ray players to shift subtitles, BDA (blu-ray disk association) has to develop new certified code and make manufacturers retrofit the technology through firmware upgrades. This shouldn't have happened for a new technology like blu-ray and it is a BIG shame on blu-ray specs development.

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

Thanks we are already doing wht is required as we are authoting the content as well and as a standard are keeping all movie subtitles wihin the frame not on the black bars .

we have also advised all potential studios from india to keep within the guidelines

thanks again For your input

[kris26]

are there any kannada,telugu,malayalam movies coming out on bluray!!!!!!!???

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

yes we have ghilli coming out soon wil keep posted

[Navster]

Originally Posted by Bollywood Blu-ray

yes we have ghilli coming out soon wil keep posted

any other bollywood movies??? om shanti om & Heyy baby were great... but where everything else???

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

only about 6 more blu ray disc's this year from the bollywood industrry which are 2 from tamil ,1 from telgu ,3 hindi discs and poss

rock on being the first in line

[NARMAK]

it's nice to see that bollywood studios are having the subtitle issue brought to their attention & taking care of it.

makes complete financial sense to allow a larger interested consumer base ease of access from business perspective & consumers can enjoy the movies, that's what i call 'WIN-WIN'

[Opips2]

I watching on www.bollywooddvds.com for blu-ray indian films release.

I was surprised, Taare Zameen Par on Blu-ray!!! I watched dvd it from rent movie. it's great story. I want buy Taare Zameen Par on blu-ray for add my collection.

[Navster]

Originally Posted by Opips2

I watching on www.bollywooddvds.com for blu-ray indian films release.

I was surprised, Taare Zameen Par on Blu-ray!!! I watched dvd it from rent movie. it's great story. I want buy Taare Zameen Par on blu-ray for add my collection.

cool thanks for the link...

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by kris26

are there any kannada,telugu,malayalam movies coming out on bluray!!!!!!!???

Pokkiri will be out soon. I expect this would be the Tamil version (not the Telugu version) - someone please confirm.

Someone else asked about Yash Raj blu-ray survey. Don't know what happened to this. It is still there on the web!

http://www.yashrajfilms.com/bluraysurvey/bluray.aspx

Bollywood Blu-ray, could you please check with Yash Raj, thanks. Yash Raj is really sleeping on this – I wonder what Chopra’s think about blu-ray and the strategy to grow the home video business while combating piracy.

[BollywoodGal]

Hi All, This is my first post in this forum. Nice to see so many people interested in Bollywood blurays. Well connected people with the industry are on the forum. Good to see old classics like DDLJ, K3G and KKHH on blu. I just did the Yash Raj survey.

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

yash raj have no plans until after xmas 2009 we have spoke with them ,poss new york could be the first one from them .will keep u posted .

[BollywoodGal]

Why don't they release the movies given in their survey? New York is not even in the survey.

[syncguy]

Philips is releasing a blu-ray player to complement their new 21:9 super-wide TVs. These blu-ray players should produce a stunning picture on HD+ resolution (2560x1080p). Note that this is a higher resolution than standard Full-HD (1920x1080p) and blu-rays will be upscaled to display on 21:9 TVs.

http://www.1ststopav.com/Upload/Docs/PHILIPS2.pdf
http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/b/b...12_dfu_eng.pdf

There is no argument and everyone agrees that DVD upscaling improves DVD picture quality - in the same manner this technology should improve current Full-HD 1920x1080p picture in particular for 2.35:1 scope movies (great advantage for Bollywood/Indian movies).

The attached material indicates that about 60% movies are made in scope format. India is much better in this regard:

I believe 99.9% Bollywood/Indian movies are made in the super-wide scope format.

These super-wide TVs and 21:9 blu-ray players are a perfect fit for Indian movies. I hope Indian movies will shine on this type of "beyond blu-ray" technology. This technology will shine even better if BDA/Sony develops anamorphic blu-ray specs to use the full benefit of HD+ 21:9 super wide TVs and blu-ray players.

One great feature of this blu-ray player (as claimed by Philips) is it's ability to shift subtitles if the studio place subtitles on the blackbars (Unfortunately, couple of studios are still hiding their heads in the sand on this matter). This is the world's first blu-ray player that can move subtitles from the black bars to the picture frame (as claimed by Philips).

Although this technology, allows subtitle shift, Indian studios should NOT rely on this new technology as it could take few years for people to upgrade. Therefore, it is safer for the Indian studios to continue current practice (thanks Eros and Ayngaran ) of placing subtitles within the picture.

Since subtitle-shift technology (certified code) is available, BDA and Sony can lead to implement this technology in existing blu-ray players via firmware upgrades. Adding subtitle shift to PS3 will be a good start and that would make many people happy.

[Bollywood Blu-ray]

Thanks again for the post

[Group.BD]

Thanks Syncguy,


"Permit player own Style" feature available in bluray authoring application,this will enable user to customise subtitle position and display color.But im not sure about all BD player and PS3 will support this function.

Please update about this.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Group.BD

Thanks Syncguy,


"Permit player own Style" feature available in bluray authoring application,this will enable user to customise subtitle position and display color.But im not sure about all BD player and PS3 will support this function.

Please update about this.

There are two methods to generate blu-ray subtitles.

1, Raster image based subs
2. BD-Java based subs

1, Raster image based subs

Raster images based subs (also used by DVD) stores subs as a sequence of images with timing information. The player just superimposes the subtitle image over the video image. Normally these subtitles cannot be shifted and it is fixed in a particular position at the authoring stage. There cannot be an option in the authoring program to enable shifting these subs. These are the widely used subs by all Bollywood and Hollywood studios.

There is a possibility for the player to interfere with the sub/video superimposing process and provide an option to move these subs and some "DVD" players have this capability. Unfortunately, blu-ray players cannot interfere with the video path to do the shifting because blu-ray video path is protected by a licensing agreement. However, Philips BDP 9100 can shift these subs and I am not sure how they manage to do this. (BDP 9100 is the first player with this capability) Philips must have certified code (from blu-ray disk association) to do the shift or they might have found a way around the licensing agreement.

2 BD-Java based subs (not in DVD specs)

Blu-ray specs has an option to generate subs in the players using Java code and these subs are stored as accii text strings (not images). Therefore, the player should generate the subs and it can shift, resize or change colour of the subtitles. Sounds great.... However, there is a big problem with this type of subs. Since these subs are generated by the player, the studios cannot control the "look and feel" of the subtitle. Also subs are not consistently generated by all players and at least in some cases it looks ugly. Due to these problems studios do not use this type of subs. So this feature has become useless. Authoring programs should have an option to enable subtitle customisation for this type of subs.

Hence, current practice of Bollywood studios, i.e. placing (raster image based) subs within the picture frame should continue to ensure universal subtitle compatibility with all available display systems (including new 21:9 super wide LCD TVs) and also not to alienate blackbar haters and zoomers who hate to look at blackbars let alone reading subs on black bars. If black bar subs is a must, it is a possibility for the studio to add two tracks (just repeat the same track twice) at the authoring stage, one in the picture and the other on the black bar.

[Group.BD]

Thanks Syncguy.