Questions for CIH System Owners

[JamesN]

I am aware of the issues facing CIH system owners regarding subtitle placement. However, I rarely see anyone discuss menu issues, which (it seems to me) can be at least as big an issue.

For those folks with 2.35:1 setups: how do you handle interacting with 16:9 menus? For example, when you first start up a disc, I assume you project at 16:9 so that you can see and access all of the main menu options. Once you've selected your options (audio settings, etc.) and selected play, I assume you switch to 2.35:1 mode as the feature starts. But isn't there a lag time in switching over, causing you to miss a few seconds of the opening of the film (albeit, likely just the studio logos)? And if so, is it enough of an annoyance to get in the way of enjoying a truly "cinematic" experience (which is really the whole point of a CIH setup in the first place, is it not)?

Also, how do you deal with popup menus? Aren't they cut off in 2.35:1 mode for many discs?

Lastly, how do you deal with titles with quirky aspect ratios such as Dark Knight or the SmileBox version of How The West Was Won? I would imagine that both of those titles would have to be projected at 16:9, thus diminishing their "theatrical impact" on a 2:35:1 screen.

I would be very interested in getting different perspectives on these issues. Thanks in advance!

[Disky76]

I think there is a sticky thread and poll somewhere concerning subtitle placement, but, in terms of where it should be placed, I would say inside the picture.

To answer your question, my best suggestion is to startup based on the technical specifications on the back of the Blu-Ray. I wouldn't be that concerned with pillar boxes on the side of a menu - it's the feature that needs to be 2.35:1, and, therefore, filling the screen. Starting up that way will ensure that you don't have to switch ratios mid feature.

I'm no expert as I still have a 16:9 screen, however, I have been looking into upgrading to 2.35:1, so have done some research.

Hope that helps!

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Disky76

I think there is a sticky thread and poll somewhere concerning subtitle placement, but, in terms of where it should be placed, I would say inside the picture.

To answer your question, my best suggestion is to startup based on the technical specifications on the back of the Blu-Ray. I wouldn't be that concerned with pillar boxes on the side of a menu - it's the feature that needs to be 2.35:1, and, therefore, filling the screen. Starting up that way will ensure that you don't have to switch ratios mid feature.

I'm no expert as I still have a 16:9 screen, however, I have been looking into upgrading to 2.35:1, so have done some research.

Hope that helps!

Thanks Disky76! I might not be expressing myself well. One could not blindly start a Blu-Ray at 2.35:1 because the main menu would still be in 16:9 and menu options could be cropped off, making them hard or impossible to access. For example, many of my Blu-Rays do not default to high def audio, and I have to go into the audio menu to engage the high def audio track before starting the feature. In such cases I wouldn't want to bypass the main menu. Therefore I would need to interact with the main menu in 16:9 mode and then switch to 2.35:1 for the feature.

I too have a 16:9 setup now, and am contemplating the jump to 2.35:1 and would like to hear how others deal with these issues.

[Deciazulado]

Most menus probably work fine cropped. If you have a PS3 you can check this by looking at them with the PS3's on screen display on..

When I watch a 2.xx movie on a 16:9 display I always turn the PS3's osd on before the movie to not have the menu bigger than the Scope feature.

[brokenthumb]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Most menus probably work fine cropped. If you have a PS3 you can check this by looking at them with the PS3's on screen display on..

When I watch a 2.xx movie on a 16:9 display I always turn the PS3's osd on before the movie to not have the menu bigger than the Scope feature.

That would be a good idea for people like me who use the zoom method with a 2.35 screen. Good idea!

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by JamesN

I am aware of the issues facing CIH system owners regarding subtitle placement. However, I rarely see anyone discuss menu issues, which (it seems to me) can be at least as big an issue.

For those folks with 2.35:1 setups: how do you handle interacting with 16:9 menus? For example, when you first start up a disc, I assume you project at 16:9 so that you can see and access all of the main menu options. Once you've selected your options (audio settings, etc.) and selected play, I assume you switch to 2.35:1 mode as the feature starts.

A good number of the menus on BD work fine in 2.35:1. For those that don't, I just temporarily switch back to 16:9, or just switch off the v-stretch function on the projector temporarily-- you end up with a horizontally stretched image, but it's just for the menu settings until you re-engage v-stretch for the main feature. This is assuming you use the "lens method" of CIH, which I do.

But isn't there a lag time in switching over, causing you to miss a few seconds of the opening of the film (albeit, likely just the studio logos)? And if so, is it enough of an annoyance to get in the way of enjoying a truly "cinematic" experience (which is really the whole point of a CIH setup in the first place, is it not)?

Nope. At least not with using a sled mounted lens for CIH. I would guess that it takes about 2 seconds to switch from one AR to another. I usually flip over to 2.35:1 once I start up the main feature, or right after the FBI warnings. I'll try to get a video of this to demonstrate...

Also, how do you deal with popup menus? Aren't they cut off in 2.35:1 mode for many discs?

They are cut off for some titles, although they do work sometimes in scope. If I have any problems, I either switch back to 16:9 or turn off v-stretch to use the popup menu, and then switch back to scope or flip v-stretch on when done.

Lastly, how do you deal with titles with quirky aspect ratios such as Dark Knight or the SmileBox version of How The West Was Won? I would imagine that both of those titles would have to be projected at 16:9, thus diminishing their "theatrical impact" on a 2:35:1 screen.

For TDK, I tried watching it with switching aspect ratios and with leaving it in scope. I found that leaving it in scope was of no detriment to the viewing presentation-- in fact, in doing it this way, it is hard to identify where those AR switches occur if you did not know beforehand or did not focus on the slight change in framing and picture quality. At no point did I feel that the IMAX footage was being "cut off" when viewing in scope.

I have HTWWW, but haven't screened it yet. I would presume that there would be slight black bars seen even in scope viewing, which still would be better than the much bigger black bars in 1.78:1

Hope this helps!

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Hope this helps!

It certainly does. Thank you!

[Deciazulado]

If you have a projector with an anamorphic lens, and you turn the v-strech off, you can watch the Smiley version of HTWWW on your 2.37 screen and it would look like this:

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

If you have a projector with an anamorphic lens, and you turn the v-strech off, you can watch the Smiley version of HTWWW on your 2.37 screen and it would look like this:

Thanks for the pic! I don't have any sort of CIH setup at the moment. I have a 720p Sony Cineza and a 100" 16:9 screen. I'm thinking of upgrading to a 1080p sometime in the near future and I'm weighing all of my options...including moving to a 2.35:1 screen. If I do, I'd likely look hard at the Panasonic AE3000U for its zoom and focus memory, since I don't think I'll be able to afford a new pj and a new screen and an anamorphic lens and a sled. So the Panny is definitely tempting in that regard.

p.s. I love your emoticon home theater audience!

[Disky76]

What about a shifting aspect ratio movie like The Dark Night? How would that display on a CIH system? I am thinking that if the image is stretched using v-stretch/anamporphic lens, how would the projector revert back to 16:9 during the IMAX sequences?

For those of you with CIH and anamorphic lenses, how does The Dark Night display on your system?

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Disky76

What about a shifting aspect ratio movie like The Dark Night? How would that display on a CIH system? I am thinking that if the image is stretched using v-stretch/anamporphic lens, how would the projector revert back to 16:9 during the IMAX sequences?

For those of you with CIH and anamorphic lenses, how does The Dark Night display on your system?

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

For TDK, I tried watching it with switching aspect ratios and with leaving it in scope. I found that leaving it in scope was of no detriment to the viewing presentation-- in fact, in doing it this way, it is hard to identify where those AR switches occur if you did not know beforehand or did not focus on the slight change in framing and picture quality. At no point did I feel that the IMAX footage was being "cut off" when viewing in scope.

You have to manually switch the AR's as there is no way (yet) of having your system do this automatically. There is metadata on BD's that does have a tag for the AR, and there was a rumor that Lumagen's Radiance VP was going to be able to read the metadata tag and be able to trigger automatic AR changes when properly programmed. But, AFAIK, this is not currently available.

Bottom line, at least with TDK, you can watch the whole thing in scope and not be bothered by the AR changes.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Bottom line, at least with TDK, you can watch the whole thing in scope and not be bothered by the AR changes.

This is the way the TDK was shown in many thousands (perhaps 99.9%) of movie theaters around the world. I cannot see it changing in next twenty years - may be more.

TDK was designed and made for that (i.e. scope theaters) and future IMAX movies will do the same.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

If you have a projector with an anamorphic lens, and you turn the v-strech off, you can watch the Smiley version of HTWWW on your 2.37 screen and it would look like this:

IMO, this looks ugly. It is not possible to simulate a large curved screen in this manner.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

For TDK, I tried watching it with switching aspect ratios and with leaving it in scope. I found that leaving it in scope was of no detriment to the viewing presentation-- in fact, in doing it this way, it is hard to identify where those AR switches occur if you did not know beforehand or did not focus on the slight change in framing and picture quality. At no point did I feel that the IMAX footage was being "cut off" when viewing in scope.

I suspect that watching TDK in scope will only work with a scaler and anamorphic lens. Using the zoom method would likely result in massive lightspill on the 16:9 segments above and below a 2.35:1 screen, regardless of how dark the top and bottom screen masking was.

[audioguy]

Originally Posted by JamesN

I suspect that watching TDK in scope will only work with a scaler and anamorphic lens. Using the zoom method would likely result in massive lightspill on the 16:9 segments above and below a 2.35:1 screen, regardless of how dark the top and bottom screen masking was.

I do not have a scaler but do have an anamorphic lens and there is no issue watching this movie in 2:35--- at least for me and my wife. YMMV

[J.Seb]

In my humble opinion, the IMAX footage was included to give a more immersive feeling and I think it only applies to IMAX theatres and 16:9 screens. If you watch it on a 16:9 you'll certainly get a bigger picture than the rest of scope footage but, if you watch the IMAX footage in a 2.35 screen pillarboxed, you end up getting a smaller picture, which I don't think was the intention really…

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by J.Seb

In my humble opinion, the IMAX footage was included to give a more immersive feeling and I think it only applies to IMAX theatres and 16:9 screens. If you watch it on a 16:9 you'll certainly get a bigger picture than the rest of scope footage but, if you watch the IMAX footage in a 2.35 screen pillarboxed, you end up getting a smaller picture, which I don't think was the intention really…

That is not true actually. On a 2.35 screen, the IMAX sections do not get pillarboxed and look smaller, instead they cut-off at the top and bottom but the image remains filling the 2.35 screen. So in reality, the image is actually larger than on a 16:9 screen, but you don't see a portion of the top and bottom which you can see on a 16:9 screen. Happens when I view TDK and Transformers 2.

[J.Seb]

Originally Posted by vega2K

That is not true actually. On a 2.35 screen, the IMAX sections do not get pillarboxed and look smaller, instead they cut-off at the top and bottom but the image remains filling the 2.35 screen. So in reality, the image is actually larger than on a 16:9 screen, but you don't see a portion of the top and bottom which you can see on a 16:9 screen. Happens when I view TDK and Transformers 2.

Sorry if my message wasn't clear but what I actually meant was: imagine a 2.35 screen and that every time there's imax footage, the viewer would manually switch the aspect ratio (turn v-stretch, etc off) to get 16:9 , the whole blu ray picture - I know this would not happen automatically but I have read that there are some viewers that would pause the movie, change the ratio, view the imax footage and after that switch back to scope.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think that the 16:9 material at TDK blu ray is actually cropped imax material - that is, if it were to be true to the original image AR, the imatge would be pillarboxed in a 16:9 screen. If the director wanted to show that whole image, there would be black bars in the blu ray and in scope cinemas but then again, how can you expect to give a more immersive shot with a far smaller picture, you may as well stick to the biggest you can have providing your screen ratio.

It's one of the few cases in which "cropping" the image to fit 2.35 is alright, as those scenes were filmed with that ratio in mind too, to be projected on regular cinemas.

Haven't seen Transformers 2, but from what I've read, I think its slightly different: if you crop the imax scenes you don't get exactly the same image as you get in the "normal" version, as it's somewhat shifted.

The real tragedy with CIH systems comes with some subtitles being placed on the black bars, that's a real bummer.

ps: excuse my English…

[vega2K]

Originally Posted by J.Seb

Sorry if my message wasn't clear but what I actually meant was: imagine a 2.35 screen and that every time there's imax footage, the viewer would manually switch the aspect ratio (turn v-stretch, etc off) to get 16:9 , the whole blu ray picture - I know this would not happen automatically but I have read that there are some viewers that would pause the movie, change the ratio, view the imax footage and after that switch back to scope.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think that the 16:9 material at TDK blu ray is actually cropped imax material - that is, if it were to be true to the original image AR, the imatge would be pillarboxed in a 16:9 screen. If the director wanted to show that whole image, there would be black bars in the blu ray and in scope cinemas but then again, how can you expect to give a more immersive shot with a far smaller picture, you may as well stick to the biggest you can have providing your screen ratio.

It's one of the few cases in which "cropping" the image to fit 2.35 is alright, as those scenes were filmed with that ratio in mind too, to be projected on regular cinemas.

Haven't seen Transformers 2, but from what I've read, I think its slightly different: if you crop the imax scenes you don't get exactly the same image as you get in the "normal" version, as it's somewhat shifted.

The real tragedy with CIH systems comes with some subtitles being placed on the black bars, that's a real bummer.

ps: excuse my English…

I got you now. I agree. With Transformers 2, when the IMAX scenes come on, I noticed a better resolution/sharper image, but the scene seemed cropped on top and on bottom, which is actually the case and can be seen correctly by shifting to a 16:9 AR, as you point out. Not a huge distraction, though, especially since there are only a few scenes. I think they did a better job of framing the scenes in TDK, than in Transformers 2 because in TDK, you really can't even tell that the IMAX scenes are cropped.

My understanding is that you are correct that if a true IMAX scene was to be shown on a 16:9 screen, it would be pillarboxed.

As far as subtitles - it truly sucks for someone like me who watches movies at night when kids are asleep and the subtitles become crucial. On the plus side, I think I have started to be able to read lips!

[J.Seb]

Originally Posted by vega2K

As far as subtitles - it truly sucks for someone like me who watches movies at night when kids are asleep and the subtitles become crucial. On the plus side, I think I have started to be able to read lips!

Haha, learning to read lips must be quite handy actually.

Have you considered getting a set of wireless headphones?

If you can't listen to the movies at a certain volume, you can't really appreciate the surround activity so much anyway can you?