CES 2006 report preview - Blu-ray Forum

iceman · 01-06-2006, 06:05 AM

Me and Marwin are actually at CES 2006 right now.

We are trying to get some more precise info about the pricing and availability of the BD and HD-DVD players/recorders.

The $500 HD-DVD player is a stripped down budget version, without a remote etc, so the $800 version is the one you should compare the price with. The main problem with both the HD-DVD players is that they are 1080i(!) while all the BD players are 1080p. If you look at the Blu-ray movie covers you will notice that they state 1080p, while the HD-DVD movie covers don't say anything about the image quality...

The Pioneer Elite model for $1800 is a high-brand model with plenty of extras and the price can't really be compared to other models, it's not made for the "ordinary" consumer as the name "Elite" suggests. Some LG representative gave us a price quote of less than $1000 for their BD player. A Sony representative told us they hadn't yet decided their price, but he hinted at a price around $1000.

To summarize it, right now it looks like if you want to watch movies in 1080i you could save a couple of hundred dollars and buy a Toshiba HD-DVD player, but if you want to watch movies in 1080p you should buy a Blu-ray player.

Another positive thing with the BD players is that they have become much smaller, you'll see that when we get back with more info and a longer report after CES

CORRECTIONS:
--------------
There was a misunderstanding when talking to the japanese representative for Toshiba, the HD-A1 (the $500 player) HAS a remote, it's just a different remote from the HD-XA1 (the $800 player). So the difference between the HD-A1 and HD-XA1 are the remote, cosmetics (the HD-XA1 looks much better and has a fully automated door) and that the HD-XA1 has a rs232c connection which the HD-A1 doesn't. Actually the HD-A1 is just a mockup so far, so it hasn't any connections at all:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6866449
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6872770

Sharp's Blu-ray player is only 720p/1080i, but Pioneer's and Sony's players are confirmed 1080p.

zombie · 01-06-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

The $500 HD-DVD player is a stripped down budget version, without a remote

Are you serious? No remote. lol

I look forward to your pictures. Try to get some of the back of the units if they'll let you. Be nice to see for certain what inputs/outputs are on the decks displayed.

Blue · 01-07-2006, 02:30 PM

At least it seems Blu Ray Movies will be in 1080p. Samsung is releasing a player in April - is it possible they will get to rain on Toshiba's parade? I think it's a safe bet that Sony will make sure there are titles available when it's released.

Guppa · 01-08-2006, 09:52 PM

HD-DVD Remote

Knight-Errant · 01-08-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n2blu

Are you serious? No remote. lol

I look forward to your pictures. Try to get some of the back of the units if they'll let you. Be nice to see for certain what inputs/outputs are on the decks displayed.

No remote?! What is this? The dark ages? LOL

Also it's amazing that the BDs are gonna be 1080p.

Does this mean there will soon be displays which accept 1080p inputs?

Any word on displays at CES?

zombie · 01-09-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guppa

HD-DVD Remote

Yeah I saw that too. I didn't think we were back in the "dark ages" as Knight-Errant joked.

hmurchison · 01-09-2006, 06:21 AM

OMG

Seems you guys need a little correction

Both formats store the data at progressive rates. Likely 1080p/24 so that no conversion is needed from the film master. Technically the frame rate is 23.96 with a 3:2 pull down.

Blu Ray is NOT 1080p that decision goes to the hardware vendor that can decide what output they want. HD DVD supports 1080i right now because that is what most TVs have as inputs. Future models can and will support 1080p when there are enough sets with 1080p inputs.

Sony's top of the line SXRD 55 and 60" sets are 1080p screens that only accept 1080i inputs.

Many of you are overselling this. 1080i vs 1080p may not even reveal a difference on some media. 1080i can be deinterlaced and shown as 1080p in some products. It's not a feature you're going to be able to sell someone without severely misleading them.

Let the best format win..based on its merit and not half truths

Blue · 01-09-2006, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmurchison

OMG

<SNIP>
Many of you are overselling this. 1080i vs 1080p may not even reveal a difference on some media. 1080i can be deinterlaced and shown as 1080p in some products. It's not a feature you're going to be able to sell someone without severely misleading them.

Let the best format win..based on its merit and not half truths

Numerous web sites over year ago were promoting 1080p a much higher quality than 1080i - and they were fairly unbiased as they stated this was most probably a dream for many years to come (neither HD or BD had announced their intentions). I guess this will be the next big thread.

hmurchison · 01-09-2006, 04:38 PM

I think 1080p is in fact the holy grail.

However the biggest confusion i've seen is people not differentiating what the stored format is versus what is displayed.

Both formats will easily and most likely preferrable store the content in a film friendly 1080p/24.

Some Blu Ray models take the extra step to output 1080p. HD DVD players currently output up to 1080i but there's no limitation to them outputting 1080p in the future.

Blu Ray is the superior format. If it can withstand the low cost antics of HD DVD it'll be fine.

AV_Integrated · 01-09-2006, 08:14 PM

I was not aware that the HD-DVD spec called for support of 1080p on the hardware CODEC side of things. This matters a great deal as IF the hardware does not support 1080p/24 per spec (internally) then it will never have 1080p/24 content.

Sure, the Toshiba models are only 720p/1080i HD compliant, but will CODECs for HD-DVD be limited by this? I'm not sure of that, but it does appear that ALL Blu-Ray players must support 1080p internally. So, if you buy a 1080p disc, you can play it back on any Blu-Ray disc player, even if it doesn't support 1080p output. But, moving forward, if you buy a 1080p capable Blu-Ray player you will have that as the native resolution available to you.

Like I said though - I am not sure and it seems as much like conjecture as it does fact.

Alex Pallas · 01-09-2006, 08:50 PM

heres some pics from news.com:
http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6024705-7.html
note the RCA HD-DVD player, isn't RCA owned by Sony?wtf

zombie · 01-09-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Pallas

isn't RCA owned by Sony?wtf

Not to my knowledge, isn't RCA owned by GE?

Marwin · 01-10-2006, 04:31 AM

Sorry about not replying to your posts for a few days but we didn't have time to find an Internet Cafe and then we were stuck on our long flight home.

Let me just clarify that the "no remote" comment about the Toshiba HD-DVD player was a misunderstanding from talking to a Japanese representative which english wasn't very good. We went back there later because we thought it sounded too strange to be true. He must either have been talking about not having the remote for the cheaper player at the show, or he was referring to it not having the backlight feature on it.

Marwin · 01-10-2006, 04:49 AM

As for 1080p, it was nice to get further confirmation that Blu-ray will indeed be using this resolution for the movies. I guess supporting 1080p in the players from the start is a decision about increasing the overall cost and how many will be able to use it. Toshiba has gone for the cheaper player, while most Blu-ray players we saw mentioned 1080p support. Time will tell if the early adopters care about this difference.

Marwin · 01-10-2006, 04:53 AM

RCA is the Thomson player for those wondering. We talked to them at the show and when asked about when they might release the player they said that they will wait and see how the whole Blu-ray vs HD-DVD issue pans out before releasing the player. LG which was showing both a Blu-ray and HD-DVD player that essentially looked the same said they would be taking the same approach.

01-06-2006, 06:05 AM	#1
iceman Developer Top contributor Member since:May 2003 Home Theater Gallery:13 4K collection:27 Blu-ray collection:121 DVD collection:26 MA collection:1 Digital collection:6 iTunes collection:10 iTunes music:2 Prime collection:3 Trading Score:1	CES 2006 report preview Me and Marwin are actually at CES 2006 right now. We are trying to get some more precise info about the pricing and availability of the BD and HD-DVD players/recorders. The $500 HD-DVD player is a stripped down budget version, without a remote etc, so the $800 version is the one you should compare the price with. The main problem with both the HD-DVD players is that they are 1080i(!) while all the BD players are 1080p. If you look at the Blu-ray movie covers you will notice that they state 1080p, while the HD-DVD movie covers don't say anything about the image quality... The Pioneer Elite model for $1800 is a high-brand model with plenty of extras and the price can't really be compared to other models, it's not made for the "ordinary" consumer as the name "Elite" suggests. Some LG representative gave us a price quote of less than $1000 for their BD player. A Sony representative told us they hadn't yet decided their price, but he hinted at a price around $1000. To summarize it, right now it looks like if you want to watch movies in 1080i you could save a couple of hundred dollars and buy a Toshiba HD-DVD player, but if you want to watch movies in 1080p you should buy a Blu-ray player. Another positive thing with the BD players is that they have become much smaller, you'll see that when we get back with more info and a longer report after CES CORRECTIONS: -------------- There was a misunderstanding when talking to the japanese representative for Toshiba, the HD-A1 (the $500 player) HAS a remote, it's just a different remote from the HD-XA1 (the $800 player). So the difference between the HD-A1 and HD-XA1 are the remote, cosmetics (the HD-XA1 looks much better and has a fully automated door) and that the HD-XA1 has a rs232c connection which the HD-A1 doesn't. Actually the HD-A1 is just a mockup so far, so it hasn't any connections at all: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6866449 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6872770 Sharp's Blu-ray player is only 720p/1080i, but Pioneer's and Sony's players are confirmed 1080p. Last edited by Iceman; 01-10-2006 at 04:23 PM.

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01-07-2006, 02:30 PM	#3
Blue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Melbourne Australia Blu-ray collection:206	At least it seems Blu Ray Movies will be in 1080p. Samsung is releasing a player in April - is it possible they will get to rain on Toshiba's parade? I think it's a safe bet that Sony will make sure there are titles available when it's released.

01-08-2006, 09:52 PM	#4
Guppa Junior Member Member since:Nov 2005	HD-DVD Remote

01-09-2006, 06:21 AM	#7
hmurchison Banned Member since:Aug 2004 Location:Seaattle	OMG Seems you guys need a little correction Both formats store the data at progressive rates. Likely 1080p/24 so that no conversion is needed from the film master. Technically the frame rate is 23.96 with a 3:2 pull down. Blu Ray is NOT 1080p that decision goes to the hardware vendor that can decide what output they want. HD DVD supports 1080i right now because that is what most TVs have as inputs. Future models can and will support 1080p when there are enough sets with 1080p inputs. Sony's top of the line SXRD 55 and 60" sets are 1080p screens that only accept 1080i inputs. Many of you are overselling this. 1080i vs 1080p may not even reveal a difference on some media. 1080i can be deinterlaced and shown as 1080p in some products. It's not a feature you're going to be able to sell someone without severely misleading them. Let the best format win..based on its merit and not half truths

01-09-2006, 04:38 PM	#9
hmurchison Banned Member since:Aug 2004 Location:Seaattle	I think 1080p is in fact the holy grail. However the biggest confusion i've seen is people not differentiating what the stored format is versus what is displayed. Both formats will easily and most likely preferrable store the content in a film friendly 1080p/24. Some Blu Ray models take the extra step to output 1080p. HD DVD players currently output up to 1080i but there's no limitation to them outputting 1080p in the future. Blu Ray is the superior format. If it can withstand the low cost antics of HD DVD it'll be fine.

01-09-2006, 08:14 PM	#10
AV_Integrated Senior Member Member since:Jan 2005	I was not aware that the HD-DVD spec called for support of 1080p on the hardware CODEC side of things. This matters a great deal as IF the hardware does not support 1080p/24 per spec (internally) then it will never have 1080p/24 content. Sure, the Toshiba models are only 720p/1080i HD compliant, but will CODECs for HD-DVD be limited by this? I'm not sure of that, but it does appear that ALL Blu-Ray players must support 1080p internally. So, if you buy a 1080p disc, you can play it back on any Blu-Ray disc player, even if it doesn't support 1080p output. But, moving forward, if you buy a 1080p capable Blu-Ray player you will have that as the native resolution available to you. Like I said though - I am not sure and it seems as much like conjecture as it does fact.

01-09-2006, 08:50 PM	#11
Alex Pallas Active Member Member since:Sep 2005 Location:The Belly Of The Beast (USA)	heres some pics from news.com: http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6024705-7.html note the RCA HD-DVD player, isn't RCA owned by Sony?wtf

01-10-2006, 04:31 AM	#13
Marwin Developer Top contributor Member since:May 2003 Blu-ray collection:10 DVD collection:5 iTunes collection:1	Sorry about not replying to your posts for a few days but we didn't have time to find an Internet Cafe and then we were stuck on our long flight home. Let me just clarify that the "no remote" comment about the Toshiba HD-DVD player was a misunderstanding from talking to a Japanese representative which english wasn't very good. We went back there later because we thought it sounded too strange to be true. He must either have been talking about not having the remote for the cheaper player at the show, or he was referring to it not having the backlight feature on it.

01-10-2006, 04:49 AM	#14
Marwin Developer Top contributor Member since:May 2003 Blu-ray collection:10 DVD collection:5 iTunes collection:1	As for 1080p, it was nice to get further confirmation that Blu-ray will indeed be using this resolution for the movies. I guess supporting 1080p in the players from the start is a decision about increasing the overall cost and how many will be able to use it. Toshiba has gone for the cheaper player, while most Blu-ray players we saw mentioned 1080p support. Time will tell if the early adopters care about this difference.

01-10-2006, 04:53 AM	#15
Marwin Developer Top contributor Member since:May 2003 Blu-ray collection:10 DVD collection:5 iTunes collection:1	RCA is the Thomson player for those wondering. We talked to them at the show and when asked about when they might release the player they said that they will wait and see how the whole Blu-ray vs HD-DVD issue pans out before releasing the player. LG which was showing both a Blu-ray and HD-DVD player that essentially looked the same said they would be taking the same approach.

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