FULLRANGE+LFE vs SATs+ SUBs(ALL CHANNEL BASS & LFE)?

[o0O Bill O0o]

This thread catches the tip of the iceberg.

BUT what I want to know is what are the set-ups out there for solutions to modern full range descrete channels OTHER than using a single sub with multiple sats?

Examples that I can think of are:

Each channel speaker level run to a sub w/ a high pass XO to a less bass capable ( we'll define that as a Satellite or Sat) then a separate sub or subs to run LFE.

Each channel line level run to each sub from the pre outs using the low pass XO inside the sub. and Sats run speaker as Large ( if bass weak, w/ an inline highpass XO) then a separate sub or subs to run LFE.

I'm not satisfied with the solution to Bass Manage all frequencies below the Bass managament's XO point. So 5-7 Sats and 4 subs, and the 4 subs getting all channel low bass AND the LFE channel versus LARGE on all channels for full range including deep bass and Subs for LFE.

This might be a fine solution, but really is it better than FULL RANGE or LARGE speakers and dedicated LFE channel?

note: don't limit to a single sub, you can use as many as necessary.
_Bill

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by o0O Bill O0o

This thread catches the tip of the iceberg.

BUT what I want to know is what are the set-ups out there for solutions to modern full range descrete channels OTHER than using a single sub with multiple sats?

Examples that I can think of are:

Each channel speaker level run to a sub w/ a high pass XO to a less bass capable ( we'll define that as a Satellite or Sat) then a separate sub or subs to run LFE.

Each channel line level run to each sub from the pre outs using the low pass XO inside the sub. and Sats run speaker as Large ( if bass weak, w/ an inline highpass XO) then a separate sub or subs to run LFE.

I'm not satisfied with the solution to Bass Manage all frequencies below the Bass managament's XO point. So 5-7 Sats and 4 subs, and the 4 subs getting all channel low bass AND the LFE channel versus LARGE on all channels for full range including deep bass and Subs for LFE.

This might be a fine solution, but really is it better than FULL RANGE or LARGE speakers and dedicated LFE channel?

note: don't limit to a single sub, you can use as many as necessary.
_Bill

Hi Bill, I'd love to give you some advice here...I have been down this road recently and feel I have reached my goal regarding optimal LFE.

I would honestly steer away from the multiple subwoofer idea. With 4 subs and multiple satellite speakers you will have way too much of a boomy sound, with little or no impact in the mid-bass regions. The satellite speakers are great for surround applications, but if it's high quality bass your looking for....you will need FULL range towers as your mains.

Instead of the multiple subwoofer and satellite speaker array, you should stick with full range mains and then add a single ( flagship ) subwoofer. In other words, take the money you would spend on multiple subs and put that into your budget for a single HIGH quality sub...capable of clean output below 20hz.

Please give me an idea of your budget and I can give you some more options..... thanks,

Bri

[o0O Bill O0o]

Hmm.

If mid-bass it the single point of failure in a sub inline with a sat then get a full range tower?

Why is that the case, why were you unsuccessful with integrating the sub with the sat it was conntected to?

I think the idea is ingeneious. Still why have so few manufacturers elected this as a solution? I think it's power recepticle issue.. and not finding a way to integrate the sub with the sat.

lastly, what was your route?

The way I see it, if you get a decent bookshelf and a sealed sub for each channel, the listener will have no issue with getting a FULL RANGE or LARGE signal that is integrated with the whole system. THEN a big subwoofer for LFE. and on a side note why by stands when you can get subs?

-Bill

p.s. budget, $6K USD, but dream about 12k heheh

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by o0O Bill O0o

Hmm.

If mid-bass it the single point of failure in a sub inline with a sat then get a full range tower?

Why is that the case, why were you unsuccessful with integrating the sub with the sat it was conntected to?

I think the idea is ingeneious. Still why have so few manufacturers elected this as a solution? I think it's power recepticle issue.. and not finding a way to integrate the sub with the sat.

lastly, what was your route?

The way I see it, if you get a decent bookshelf and a sealed sub for each channel, the listener will have no issue with getting a FULL RANGE or LARGE signal that is integrated with the whole system. THEN a big subwoofer for LFE. and on a side note why by stands when you can get subs?

-Bill

p.s. budget, $6K USD, but dream about 12k heheh

Bill,


Most satellite speakers ( bookshelf or small floorstander) hooked up to a seperate subwoofer will provide a gap in frequency response,....so it's not that I was initially unsuccessful....it's more like I was asking for the impossible.

My solution - Invest in a set of high definition true FULL range speakers and set them to LARGE on the reciever, with the LFE sent directly to the subwoofer at a 30hz crossover point.

This setup will best the idea of getting a multiple satellite/sub arrangement in all aspects of sonic fidelity, dynamics, and transparency.


The only problem is TRUE full range speakers are not cheap...it took me years and years to save up for the upgrade, but I can promise you it was worth the wait...

I had thought my paradigm studio 100's were full range speakers until I heard the PBN Montana lineup....simply magical in terms of dynamics.

talk to ya real soon Bill,...!

Bri

[o0O Bill O0o]

Yeah, I know most FULL RANGE speakers are seriously expensive. I feel you with the complexity of a sub and sat per channel when it seems like it's too easy.

I looked at Definitive Tech, they have really beefy towers, and although the claim spec is WAY off, words is that the BP7000C hit -3dB at 20 Hz.

BUT my other requirement as per Dolby and Grammy is that you want 5 identical fullrange speakers. How and where do you find compact FULL RANGE? And I mean 40HZ to 18KHz by full range per Grammy's white papers.

the 3rd requirement (constraint) is that I have a LCD TV not a perforated cinema screen and I can't put the center where I want it.

4th Requirement that ties into this Dolby/THX display positions really prohibits more thank 15 degree head upward tilt for view.. ( and I can vouch from sitting too close at the theaters..)

The only thing Def tech offers that comes close is the CLR3000. Who else?

Really what I should do is get 5 FULL RANGE speakers and a perforated cinema screen and projector and call it done. BUT that is so much more when you add the screen and projector..

any recommendations w/ out hijacking the thread about speaker brands?

-Bill

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by o0O Bill O0o

Yeah, I know most FULL RANGE speakers are seriously expensive. I feel you with the complexity of a sub and sat per channel when it seems like it's too easy.

I looked at Definitive Tech, they have really beefy towers, and although the claim spec is WAY off, words is that the BP7000C hit -3dB at 20 Hz.

BUT my other requirement as per Dolby and Grammy is that you want 5 identical fullrange speakers. How and where do you find compact FULL RANGE? And I mean 40HZ to 18KHz by full range per Grammy's white papers.

the 3rd requirement (constraint) is that I have a LCD TV not a perforated cinema screen and I can't put the center where I want it.

4th Requirement that ties into this Dolby/THX display positions really prohibits more thank 15 degree head upward tilt for view.. ( and I can vouch from sitting too close at the theaters..)

The only thing Def tech offers that comes close is the CLR3000. Who else?

Really what I should do is get 5 FULL RANGE speakers and a perforated cinema screen and projector and call it done. BUT that is so much more when you add the screen and projector..

any recommendations w/ out hijacking the thread about speaker brands?

-Bill

Unfortunately there are no " compact " TRUE full range speakers available. Keep in mind that the def tech CLR3000 is not true full range...it's a bookshelf with a weak built in subwoofer.

The BP7000 is not TRUE full range either....this is because it uses an array of 6 inch drivers connected to a self powered 14" subwoofer.

Typically a true Full range tower will not have a built in amp/sub. It instead will consist of an array of drivers cabable of reproducing the entire audio spectrum without the need for a powered subwoofer.

Let me get back to you soon with some speaker ideas....

talk to ya,

B

[o0O Bill O0o]

See the flip side to the problem is to use any speaker and high pass it to where it runs out of usable bass and send to the subwoofer.
It's quite clever and of course cost effective.

Bass frequencies have been proven to be omni-directional below 80Hz, and using this trick we are able to make these hometheater in box concept a buyers market.

Now, most don't listen at loud (85db) levels, but realistically most single sub would explode (sarcasm) when all bass from XO on down INCLUDING the LFE is sent to it.

The set-up that I am talking about is all speakers set to SMALL and SUB to get LFE+MAIN+SURROUND+CENTER Bass.

Another quoted benefit is that the LFE+MAIN+SURROUND+CENTER Bass is all in phase. But I'd have to do some more reading about this.. as I am not sure.

Some out there add more subs, in the theory 2 (4, 6, an so on) is better than one. Better sound distro, etc.. makes sense to me.. On top of that they EQ with room corrections software and tout the benefit of flexible subwoofer placement versus the locked in feature of a FULL RANGE speaker.

So, Full range in all channels or highpassed with multiple subs?

[Driver_King]

Even if you have all full-range speakers, you would need to have some serious amplification for the speakers. Multiple subwoofers would be the smarter choice. And that doesn't mean you can't get full-range speakers, just don't run them as such.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

Even if you have all full-range speakers, you would need to have some serious amplification for the speakers. Multiple subwoofers would be the smarter choice. And that doesn't mean you can't get full-range speakers, just don't run them as such.

This is a valid point regarding needing serious amplification to run full range speakers. I guess the cheaper route would be to go with multiple subs but would this be a smarter investment??

I's say go with full range towers up front and a powerful 2 channel amplifier to start with. Then you can build on this by adding a single, yet powerful, subwoofer too reinforce below 40hz. No only will this reveal superior sound quality for movies....it will also allow you to enjoy for some awesome music listening sessions...

talk to you guys soon,
B

[o0O Bill O0o]

After a good bit a research, 3 identical speakers up front are the most important factor in home theater. Tower, Monitors or even Tower w/ in line subs or Monitors with in-line subs.. what ever method gets you going, you must have 3 identical speakers for the three front channels.

Now that being said.. There are various levels of this set-up

1. The most afordable way is Monitors and a single sub. Directing all bass or summed bass to the subwoofer.
2. all of 1 but at an additional subwoofer
3. all of 1 but have 4 identical subwoofers
4. Towers, and one sub, crossed over around 40hz (crossed over via processor)
5. all of 4 but at an additional subwoofer (crossed over via processor)
6. all of 4 but have 4 identical subwoofers (crossed over via provessor)

i'll caveat this all and roughly quote Jim Theil " you take an normal speaker like the CS1.6 and rip out its crossover and put it in another speaker, that is what it's like with todays processors and AVRs and how they use bass managment, do you think you going to get an intergrated good sounding result?"

My logic says, "NO". Because crossovers are finely tuned for each speaker and you can just apply a one for all crossover. But I do use my AVR Bass Managment and thusly it's internal crossover with no issues ( as far as I know ) but still it leaves the wander of what it would be like with a separte crossover designed specifically for a speaker setup.. Like Thiel's own SCS4 and Smart Sub 1 hometheater.. could that be any better or is it applying logic to marketing versus real world postive results?

[jomari]

this is one reason why i dont believe that we should limit responses to crossover settings set at 80hz, when you can have some speakers go lower than that point.

very interesting thread folks.