center channel

[d.white]

i currently have the synergy serious kllipsch speakers and i want to upgrade my center to a rc-62. can i do that or is that taboo. im kinda satisfied with my f-2s and s-2s but not to happy with the c-2 center. i have read nothing but good reviews about the reference series channels both the the 52 and the 62. if anyone has one of these center channels can you comment on the difference between the synergy and the reference center channels is it really that much of a difference. any comments would be appreciate.

[BStecke]

You typically want to make sure your fronts and center are matched, otherwise you might encounter some discrepancy between the three channels. For example, you have a tank drive across your screen. On the left it sounds like a car, in the middle it actually sounds like a tank, and then on the right it sounds like a car again.

It's an extreme example, but unmatched speakers can lead to some pretty obvious differences in sound.

I have the RC62, though. I originally had the Synergy series circa 2001 (before Best Buy started selling them) and upgraded them to the Reference series. It's a marked improvement. I don't think I would've put the RC62 with my Synergy's though.

[Beerserker]

Although it is good to have all the speakers timbre match, sometimes I think this is overstated. In an Ideal world all your speakers would use the same combination of drivers to achieve perfect matching. This is not always the case, due to various reasons, even in speakers from the same model lines.
Sometimes it is best to choose the speaker that sounds the best, not the one that matches perfectly. What is the greater problem, having a center that will be out of timbre with the mains, or having a center where you can't hear dialog?
I like to hear the dialog in my movies.

Sticking with the same brand of speakers is a good start. It's not like you are trying to match a Martin Logan electro-stat to Klipsh horns, so you should be farily close from the start.
You may find that the RC-62 matches the mains just fine, after all the c-2 center is an entry level center and as such, probably didn't get a lot of thought put into it's design, it's just "there". I am inclined to say go ahead and address the problem of the center with the upgrade, and work towards building the rest of the system to match that. Just be aware the RC-62 is on another level compared to the synergys. Once you have the center you'll probably get the bug to upgrade the mains as well, be ready for that!

People usually start with the mains when upgrading, but in this case, the center is problematic. It is probably the best place to begin.

[kareface]

I agree with bee to an extent. Having a nicer center might outweigh timber matching if the quality difference is great enough. The problem is panning, if you have dialogue that pans between your fronts, you'll hear the difference clearly. The same is true for other sounds, but our ears aren't as sensitive to ambient sounds as they are to tonal qualities of peoples voices. Ideally tho you want to get mains that you can find a good center channel to match. If your mains have a symmetrical horizontal dispersion pattern you can always just get a third 'main speaker' and run it vertically in the center (if you have room to do so).

[Steve]

Originally Posted by d.white

i currently have the synergy serious kllipsch speakers and i want to upgrade my center to a rc-62. can i do that or is that taboo. im kinda satisfied with my f-2s and s-2s but not to happy with the c-2 center. i have read nothing but good reviews about the reference series channels both the the 52 and the 62. if anyone has one of these center channels can you comment on the difference between the synergy and the reference center channels is it really that much of a difference. any comments would be appreciate.

Since you're only "kinda satisfied" with you F-2s, I would not be at all surprised if you decide you want to upgrade them as well after switching to an RC-62 center.

[sarge1976]

As of now I have the Synergy F-3s for fronts and a Reference RC-52 for a center and I am not happy at all with my setup. I have had this combo for almost 2 years now and I can't take it anymore. It sounds "ok" but the tank sounding like a car is what I experience. Don't make the same mistake I did, upgrade all three if it's feasible. I am counting down the days until I get my new setup

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Steve

Since you're only "kinda satisfied" with you F-2s, I would not be at all surprised if you decide you want to upgrade them as well after switching to an RC-62 center.

Originally Posted by sarge1976

As of now I have the Synergy F-3s for fronts and a Reference RC-52 for a center and I am not happy at all with my setup. I have had this combo for almost 2 years now and I can't take it anymore. It sounds "ok" but the tank sounding like a car is what I experience. Don't make the same mistake I did, upgrade all three if it's feasible. I am counting down the days until I get my new setup

your honor, the prostitution rest!

seriously, I think these two gentlemen have sumed it up very nicely. My two cents to what they have put in is to save your money and upgrade your front 3 at the same time. if you had matching front 3's the you could get away with non matching surrounds, imo moreso than with non matching front 3's.

if you have waited this long, i know you can wait a bit longer till your money or an opportunity is right.

best of luck, keep us posted.

[Beerserker]

I stand by my recommendation to get the center now. Why would he want to put up with a center he doesn't like until he can afford a whole front stage? Depending on how much he can afford to save, it could be months that he'll have to listen to a center he's unhappy with, just out of fear of a little timbre match problem. I have heard plenty of these little entry level center channels and believe me I would rather have something that I can hear and understand, even if dialog panning is inconsistent. At least it will be clearly audible. In the end if he upgrades the whole main stage, at least he will have been able to enjoy the center sooner rather then later.

EDIT: and yes, if you can work three identical floorstanders into your setup, that would be ideal.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Beerserker

I stand by my recommendation to get the center now. Why would he want to put up with a center he doesn't like until he can afford a whole front stage? Depending on how much he can afford to save, it could be months that he'll have to listen to a center he's unhappy with, just out of fear of a little timbre match problem. I have heard plenty of these little entry level center channels and believe me I would rather have something that I can hear and understand, even if dialog panning is inconsistent. At least it will be clearly audible. In the end if he upgrades the whole main stage, at least he will have been able to enjoy the center sooner rather then later.

EDIT: and yes, if you can work three identical floorstanders into your setup, that would be ideal.

I wasn't trying to talk the OP out of getting a new center speaker. I was only saying after he gets it and listens for a little while he'll probably feel the need to upgrade his mains as well.

[Beerserker]

No problem, I was just addressing the advice to buy a whole front stage. While that would be nice, we don't know if it is even an option for the OP. A potential $400 purchase became over $1000 pretty fast. Given the choice of doing nothing, or getting the center, I would get the center. If he can afford a whole new front stage then awesome, get to shopping!
I have had to make due with mismatched speakers before, and while a bit bothersome, it is nowhere near as bad a making due with inadequate speakers.

[HAMP]

I totally disagree with Beerserker recommendation, which is terrible advice.

Sarge1976 has a perfect example of why, as a matter of fact he is telling it with just about the same speakers in question.

Originally Posted by sarge1976

As of now I have the Synergy F-3s for fronts and a Reference RC-52 for a center and I am not happy at all with my setup. I have had this combo for almost 2 years now and I can't take it anymore. It sounds "ok" but the tank sounding like a car is what I experience. Don't make the same mistake I did, upgrade all three if it's feasible. I am counting down the days until I get my new setup

To the OP, If you are having problems with center channel, you should check your configs to see if that is a problem first. Getting mismatched front stage is not the way to go.

I had F2's with a C3 as my center channel. I remember hearing a difference going from the center channel that came with my Quintet III's to testing a C1, C2 and was happy with the C3 that I ended up keeping. There is a subtle difference as I went up but it was a difference. I don't know what your disliking about your current setup, but if you want to try out a C3, you can get one at Vanns.com for around $180 and if you don't like, send it back.

Another thing, if the upgrade is tickling your pockets then by all means upgrade your front stage, but don’t mismatch.
.

[Beerserker]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I totally disagree with Beerserker recommendation, which is terrible advice.

Sarge1976 has a perfect example of why, as a matter of fact he is telling it with just about the same speakers in question.



To the OP, If you are having problems with center channel, you should check your configs to see if that is a problem first. Getting mismatched front stage is not the way to go.

I had F2's with a C3 as my center channel. I remember hearing a difference going from the center channel that came with my Quintet III's to testing a C1, C2 and was happy with the C3 that I ended up keeping. There is a subtle difference as I went up but it was a difference. I don't know what your disliking about your current setup, but if you want to try out a C3, you can get one at Vanns.com for around $180 and if you don't like, send it back.

Another thing, if the upgrade is tickling your pockets then by all means upgrade your front stage, but don’t mismatch.
.

Lol. This is funny. People take a general rule like timbre matching and treat it as if it is a unbreakable commandment or something. That is really simpleminded. Plus, my "terrible advice" is realistic advice. He wants to start stepping up his system, and the center is the biggest problem. Why not start there? No one is telling him to go out and buy a bunch of different speakers from different companies, it is just a starting point on the path to an upgrade. It is so typical on here that someone asks about buying an item for $500 and people instantly start saying he needs $1500 in upgrades or it isn't even worth it. I propose that he can do the same thing you are advising, except get the speaker he actually wants. Buy the danm rc-62 and try it out. If he is completely happy, problem solved. If not, return it, or consider it a first step on the road to a new main stage.

Oh and by the way, Big Daddy has a Martin Logan center running with def techs and bose, and psb, surrounds and 4 different makers of subs. Must sound awful, someone should educate him.

EDIT: also, I wonder if sarge would have rather listened to something like the C-2 for two years, rather then the RC-52.

[sarge1976]

When I bought the F-3s at BB they didn't have the C-3 available, so I went to Tweeter and the salesman reccomended the RC-52 to go with my F-3s. I wasn't to excited about the way the C-3 looked like and the guy said the RC-52 should timbre match just fine (this was before I came on this site everyday for advice.) It isn't like my HT sounds horrible but "I" can hear that something is missing. I wish I would of came here first when I decided to buy new spoeakers 2-3 years ago and I would not be looking to get new ones this year But this year I am getting all Reference series

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Beerserker

Oh and by the way, Big Daddy has a Martin Logan center running with def techs and bose, and psb, surrounds and 4 different makers of subs. Must sound awful, someone should educate him.

EDIT: also, I wonder if sarge would have rather listened to something like the C-2 for two years, rather then the RC-52.

You are trying to make it more confusing with how you typed that out. BD has Def Tech towers and a Def Tech center channel (he added a Martin Logan center to the mix). He is still using the same timbre for his front stage.

BD has different surrounds and that’s fine, the surrounds do not have to match. BD also has different subs, which has nothing to do with our subject of front stage.

BD has his reasons for adding a second center channel and I still think you are giving bad advice to someone new to mix the front stage.

There are a few people out there that don’t really care about timbre matching or having a perfect front stage and you can tell them your advice on the subject, but there are a lot more who care and if the OP didn’t care, I don’t think he would be asking.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by HAMP

You are trying to make it more confusing with how you typed that out. BD has Def Tech towers and a Def Tech center channel (he added a Martin Logan center to the mix). He is still using the same timbre for his front stage.

BD has different surrounds and that’s fine, the surrounds do not have to match. BD also has different subs, which has nothing to do with our subject of front stage.

BD has his reasons for adding a second center channel and I still think you are giving bad advice to someone new to mix the front stage.

There are a few people out there that don’t really care about timbre matching or having a perfect front stage and you can tell them your advice on the subject, but there are a lot more who care and if the OP didn’t care, I don’t think he would be asking.

Nice post HAMP .

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Beerserker

Lol. This is funny. People take a general rule like timbre matching and treat it as if it is a unbreakable commandment or something. That is really simpleminded. Plus, my "terrible advice" is realistic advice. He wants to start stepping up his system, and the center is the biggest problem. Why not start there? No one is telling him to go out and buy a bunch of different speakers from different companies, it is just a starting point on the path to an upgrade. It is so typical on here that someone asks about buying an item for $500 and people instantly start saying he needs $1500 in upgrades or it isn't even worth it. I propose that he can do the same thing you are advising, except get the speaker he actually wants. Buy the danm rc-62 and try it out. If he is completely happy, problem solved. If not, return it, or consider it a first step on the road to a new main stage.

Oh and by the way, Big Daddy has a Martin Logan center running with def techs and bose, and psb, surrounds and 4 different makers of subs. Must sound awful, someone should educate him.

EDIT: also, I wonder if sarge would have rather listened to something like the C-2 for two years, rather then the RC-52.

This is so untrue !

[Beerserker]

Originally Posted by HAMP

You are trying to make it more confusing with how you typed that out. BD has Def Tech towers and a Def Tech center channel (he added a Martin Logan center to the mix). He is still using the same timbre for his front stage.

It is what it is, and here is what BD happens to think on the subject.

"When I bought the Martin Logan, I only had the Def. Tech. center channel. I was looking for something more powerful. I was also fully aware of the so-called timbre matching, but after many years of playing with speakers and tweaking them, I have reached the conclusion that although timbre matching is important, it is a bit over rated. Even two identical speakers from the same comapny do not sound alike in a small home theater room because of interaction with room boundaries, carpets, curtains, furniture, etc. Location in a room is probably as important as the built quality. This is even more important with subwoofers because of the long wavelengths sounds that they output."

Originally Posted by HAMP

BD has different surrounds and that’s fine, the surrounds do not have to match. BD also has different subs, which has nothing to do with our subject of front stage.

BD has his reasons for adding a second center channel and I still think you are giving bad advice to someone new to mix the front stage.

There are a few people out there that don’t really care about timbre matching or having a perfect front stage and you can tell them your advice on the subject, but there are a lot more who care and if the OP didn’t care, I don’t think he would be asking.

If you bother to read the first post I made, you would find I never said it was unimportant, I simply said timbre matching is over-stated. I have never heard timbre matching so bad that "a car sounded like a tank". I have heard inadequate centers where it is hard to hear much at all.

Bottom line is it will cost the op nothing, nada, zilch to try the speaker he wants. Best Buy carries these. He can buy it and return it, no questions asked.

You are the one making my argument seem different then what it is. And trying to make yourself seem the wiser by labeling my advice terrible. Yes timbre matching is a holy cow to some, but most reasonable people can get their opinion across with out crapping on other posters. Notice every other poser stated an opinion without being confrontational or childish, and it was a reasonable discussion. I guess you are not one of those types.

[kareface]

I have to throw in with bee here. I think if you have a choice between a poor quality center with better timbre or a better quality one w/o a matching mid/tweeter then I'd likely at least test the quality route first to see how far off the timbre would be before going the cheaper route. My center uses a different mid and tweeter then my mains and you wouldn't know with the lights out. The only time you'll notice is panning female vocals and I only notice because I know what to look for. When ever possible tho I won't disagree that timber should be as closely matched as possible. BD is right that later reflections help develop what we hear as tone, so the room interaction will play a roll in the sound we hear from the speakers. However, having a completely different dispersion pattern or if the tweeters is made of very different materials then it can be very noticeable, and I would always make sure there is a in home audition for the speaker in question.

I do want to mention in BD's quote where he talks about subs, he's just mentioning that it's important to position subs with care, subs are less likely to express tonal difference because it takes longer to generate enough cycles before we can perceive a difference in pitch. However crossed over high enough it is possible to hear timbre in subs, which is why if you plan to have a high crossover point it's a good idea to match your subs if you have more then 1. As long as you have the headroom on you amp I suggest a lower crossover point when ever possible, as long as it's before the roll off on your speakers (which I prefer a 1-2db tolerance with and this assumes you don't have odd room interactions with the low range from the speakers). However in 99% of cases timbre in subs will be inaudible. You'd have to have a quite moment with a sustained bass note to really pick it up. Also frequencies at that range are much more violent in their peaks and dips, it would be hard with an uncalibrated system for someone to pick out sub timbre.

[Vorlx]

I personally purchased the RC-62 recently to upgrade my older Polk Audio CS400i center. I was never very happy with how they sounded together, my RF3-II mains seemed to really overpower it and nothing I seemed to do mattered. I then upgraded to the RC-62 and have been really pleased with it. I have no idea how it will sound with your mains but it has been a very good speaker for me so far.

On another note when the CS400i was put back into its element (back into a matching polk setup) it sounded really good again.

I think that the RC-62 is a good purchase but just be prepared that you may end up wanting to replace your fronts to get a better matching front 3.

[d.white]

well i decieded,with the wifes blessing to upgrade the center and the fronts. i got the rc 62 and the rf 62s. i got all three on sale, paid approx. $1,2094. after reading all of your posts it just made sence to get the fronts to match the center. im very satisfied with my decision, and for the price i paid, that was just to good to pass up. now i have to work on the reference series surrounds. my c-2s will have to do for now.