ICE Amp or not?

[dvdwatcher]

I'm really excited and nervous about a new receiver purchase, I really like clear sound and no hassle and have read really good things about the SC 25 and SC 27 receivers from Pioneer and really like the sound of the ICE Amp in them. I had a Harman Kardon AVR 120 which I like but it obviously doesn't have all the new bells and whistles and is now dead after about 7 years, and it got really hot in my rack so the new ICE amps sound enticing because they run cooler. Also from the reviews Ive read the Elites Sound amazing, Ive always thought between the cheap speakers and mediocre reciver my system was low end so I want something good. But like most Im sure Im on a budget and need a reciever sooner than later so is the ICE Amp all that and I should save my pennies until I can afford it or should I trust in a cheaper Elite?

[Fors*]

First, what is your budget? You would be surprised what you can get for the price of an Elite.....I ask this because I am thinking more in the line of seperates if your budget is in the price range of the Elites....

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

First, what is your budget? You would be surprised what you can get for the price of an Elite.....I ask this because I am thinking more in the line of seperates if your budget is in the price range of the Elites....

Well I dont have a budget per say, really I guess I want to know if it is really worth it? I am saving my pennies as we speak so if its really as good as they say then Ill wait and save up until I can afford it and just do without for the time being. Seven years is pretty longtime for a reciever so What ever I get Id like it to last as long if not longer. Ive never really demod anything yet just read alot of reviews of the Elites and read from alot of people with the same equipment I want to buy as far as speakers and such.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

Well I dont have a budget per say, really I guess I want to know if it is really worth it? I am saving my pennies as we speak so if its really as good as they say then Ill wait and save up until I can afford it and just do without for the time being. Seven years is pretty longtime for a reciever so What ever I get Id like it to last as long if not longer. Ive never really demod anything yet just read alot of reviews of the Elites and read from alot of people with the same equipment I want to buy as far as speakers and such.

Then I say get a decent midrange AVR with pre/outs and add external amplification to it. This would surely make it worth it to upgrade. An external amp will run cooler, provide better sound clarity, and by having seperates, it helps to further future proof yourself down the road from having to upgrade again.

I think the Onkyo 700's start with pre/outs, so does the Pioneer VSX-21 and 23, along with the Yammy 663 or 665, and consider Marantz, Sony and Denon as well. If you stay in the midrange level, you should be able to get a decent AVR for your processing, tuning and surround needs in the $500-$600 range (give or take.) Then for example, you could add an Emotiva XPA-3 to power your center and 2 fronts for $600. This would provide superior sound to your front soundstage, more so than the Elite SC-25/SC-27 can by themselves. You will also lower the load on such a receiver that you do get, helping to supply that much power to the surrounds (by using less channels) than you would if the receiver was powering all 5 or 7 channels.

If you take my advice, you see you could easily get seperates in the $1,000-$1,200 range, which is around the price of the SC-25 or SC-27. Something to think about anyway.....

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

Then I say get a decent midrange AVR with pre/outs and add external amplification to it. This would surely make it worth it to upgrade. An external amp will run cooler, provide better sound clarity, and by having seperates, it helps to further future proof yourself down the road from having to upgrade again.

I think the Onkyo 700's start with pre/outs, so does the Pioneer VSX-21 and 23, along with the Yammy 663 or 665, and consider Marantz, Sony and Denon as well. If you stay in the midrange level, you should be able to get a decent AVR for your processing, tuning and surround needs in the $500-$600 range (give or take.) Then for example, you could add an Emotiva XPA-3 to power your center and 2 fronts for $600. This would provide superior sound to your front soundstage, more so than the Elite SC-25/SC-27 can by themselves. You will also lower the load on such a receiver that you do get, helping to supply that much power to the surrounds (by using less channels) than you would if the receiver was powering all 5 or 7 channels.

If you take my advice, you see you could easily get seperates in the $1,000-$1,200 range, which is around the price of the SC-25 or SC-27. Something to think about anyway.....

Sounds like sound advice I guess, I wasnt exactly looking into seperates. How does adding an amp make both units run cooler? And what does the reciever do for me then if I run the fronts on the amp, do I still use the MCACC and any other options like normal? Is it normal to run an amp for just the front soundstage?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

Sounds like sound advice I guess, I wasnt exactly looking into seperates. How does adding an amp make both units run cooler? And what does the reciever do for me then if I run the fronts on the amp, do I still use the MCACC and any other options like normal? Is it normal to run an amp for just the front soundstage?

Yes, many people (including myself) use an amp to power the front 3 speakers (the most important ones.) I also have an SC-05 Elite that I use to power my surrounds.

The reason an amp is better is because it has a bigger transformer and more capacitors. This all translates into more power, and then better efficiency, so itwill run cooler. Ultimately, this all provides a cleaner more dynamic sound, which is what you want. By taking the load off of the AVR (becuase the amp is now powering the front 3 speakers) the AVR doesn't have to work as hard (it is using only 2 or 4 channels now instead of 5 or 7), it will run cooler. Improving the sound quality you will get from the surrounds.

The receiver will work as a pre/pro with an external amp. It will still do the processing (so yes, you would still use MCACC for calibration) and everything else just it it normally would. The amp's job is simply to power the front 3 speakers, nothing else. The receiver still does everything else (except it is no longer powering the front 3 speakers.)

Receivers need to do 3 things, they work as processors, tuners and to supply power to the speakers. Having to do 3 things = less efficiency at doing each one. So you don't always get the optimal performance from your AVR at these 3 jobs individually. The amp has one job, power. More power equates to a better dynamic range and sound to the front 3 speakers, helping them to "open up" where better detail, imaging and seperation can be detected (all of this is relavent to the quality of your speakers though.)

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

Yes, many people (including myself) use an amp to power the front 3 speakers (the most important ones.) I also have an SC-05 Elite that I use to power my surrounds.

The reason an amp is better is because it has a bigger transformer and more capacitors. This all translates into more power, and then better efficiency, so itwill run cooler. Ultimately, this all provides a cleaner more dynamic sound, which is what you want. By taking the load off of the AVR (becuase the amp is now powering the front 3 speakers) the AVR doesn't have to work as hard (it is using only 2 or 4 channels now instead of 5 or 7), it will run cooler. Improving the sound quality you will get from the surrounds.

The receiver works as a pre/pro, it does the processing (so yes, you would still use MCACC for calibration) and everything else as normal. The amps job is simply to power the front 3 speakers, nothing else. The receiver still does everything else like it normally does (except it is no longer pwoering the front 3 speakers.)

Receivers need to do 3 things, they work as processors, tuners and power the speakers. Having to do 3 things = less efficiency doing each one. So you don't always get the optimal performance from your AVR at these 3 jobs individually. The amp has one job, power. More power equates to a better dynamic range and sound to the front 3 speakers, helping them to "open up" where better detail, imaging and seperation can be detected (relavent to the quality of your speakers though.)

Im trying to look at some gallery photos of amps but you cant really tell, how is it connected? The speakers I assume goto the amp but then what? What type of cables? Any specific guage wire? I was going to run 14 guage is that ok?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

Im trying to look at some gallery photos of amps but you cant really tell, how is it connected? The speakers I assume goto the amp but then what? What type of cables? Any specific guage wire? I was going to run 14 guage is that ok?

You use interconnects (essentially RCA Audio cables.) These run from the pre-outs on the back of an AVR that has pre-outs to the amp. This is all it takes to properly "hook them up."

Yes, the speaker wire would run from the amp to those specific speakers. You would then use speaker wire from the side and rear surround speaker terminals on your AVR to those speakers. I wouldn't go below 16 gauge personally, so 14 is fine.

Here are some links for you:

Emotiva XPA-3

Interconnects

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

You use interconnects (essentially RCA Audio cables.) These run from the pre-outs on the back of an AVR that has pre-outs to the amp. This is all it takes to properly "hook them up."

Yes, the speaker wire would run from the amp to those specific speakers. You would then use speaker wire from the side and rear surround speaker terminals on your AVR to those speakers. I wouldn't go below 16 gauge personally, so 14 is fine.

Here are some links for you:

Emotiva XPA-3

Interconnects

What are X-Series Balanced XLR Cable for? there isnt anything like that on the Elites? So Im trying to go through the very long Emo thread now(boy I thought the Elite thread was long) and I see people are using more than one, with say the Elite VSX-23TXH will one Emo XPA3 be enough juice then? Im still in the process of choosing but from what I have read the Polks seem to be a decent speaker for the price so I will be choosing from that line. I just have a mediocre theater not to say I wont upgrade someday but all I was looking for is some decent Polk 7.1 setup, a good reciever and now maybe an amp but I dont want to get too much more involved than that.

Thanks for the advice so far

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

What are X-Series Balanced XLR Cable for? there isnt anything like that on the Elites? So Im trying to go through the very long Emo thread now(boy I thought the Elite thread was long) and I see people are using more than one, with say the Elite VSX-23TXH will one Emo XPA3 be enough juice then? Im still in the process of choosing but from what I have read the Polks seem to be a decent speaker for the price so I will be choosing from that line. I just have a mediocre theater not to say I wont upgrade someday but all I was looking for is some decent Polk 7.1 setup, a good reciever and now maybe an amp but I dont want to get too much more involved than that.

Thanks for the advice so far

Ignore the X-series Balanced XLR Cable, if you scrolled down, there was an exampe of an RCA Audio cable for you. I should have mentioned to scroll down a bit.

Believe me, the Emo XPA-3 will be plenty of power. It puts out 200 watts per channel, that is a lot more than the VSX-23, which more than likely is around 100 watts (or less) when all channels are pushed. That is essentially twice the power, so you should get a significant improvement in the clarity of your sound, while everything remains cool and efficient. What Polks are you looking at?

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

Ignore the X-series Balanced XLR Cable, if you scrolled down, there was an exampe of an RCA Audio cable for you. I should have mentioned to scroll down a bit.

Believe me, the Emo XPA-3 will be plenty of power. It puts out 200 watts per channel, that is a lot more than the VSX-23, which more than likely is around 100 watts (or less) when all channels are pushed. That is essentially twice the power, so you should get a significant improvement in the clarity of your sound, while everything remains cool and efficient. What Polks are you looking at?

Im not sure what Polks Im looking for, I know I will be using some Bi/Di poles for rears wether it be FXI's or Klipsch I dont know and some good front stage.Why? That I guess is the question is the Emo too powerful for some mid to high Polks?
is the VSX-23 any good? Should I wait for the new models?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

Im not sure what Polks Im looking for,Why? is the VSX-23 any good? Should I wait for the new models?

The VSX works wonderfully. No reason to wait for the newer models unless you want to buy the 23 when the newer models come out in the summer. Then the VSX 21 and 23 should be their cheapest as merchants try to dump them before they get this years models in. That is how I got my SC-05.

I know of a few members who are running an Emo amp with Polks, and they have stated that they have loved the improvement they have gotten, so even with Polks, an amp is an excellent choice.

[dvdwatcher]

Originally Posted by Fors*

The VSX works wonderfully. No reason to wait for the newer models unless you want to buy the 23 when the newer models come out in the summer. Then the VSX 21 and 23 should be their cheapest as merchants try to dump them before they get this years models in. That is how I got my SC-05.

I know of a few members who are running an Emo amp with Polks, and they have stated that they have loved the improvement they have gotten, so even with Polks, an amp is an excellent choice.

Am I going to be missing anything not having the ethernet capable reciever?

Didnt you use to have a Polk setup?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

Am I going to be missing anything not having the ethernet capable reciever?

Didnt you use to have a Polk setup?

Yep, I had a Polk set-up and sold it 2 weeks ago.

As far as the ethernet, that depends on how important that is to you. Personally, I never use mine.

PM has been sent....

[BLUTRIG]

I like ICE no matter how you get it AMP or A/V you can't go wrong

[LordoftheRings]

Maybe; the Pioneer Elite SC-27 has a new Ice amp that is improved over older models, and according to some pro reviewers, it sounds pretty good, even in the higher audio frequencies. Also some Rotel receivers newer models aren't too shabby either. ...But the final proof is in the pudding (listening).

[saprano]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Maybe; the Pioneer Elite SC-27 has a new Ice amp that is improved over older models, and according to some pro reviewers, it sounds pretty good, even in the higher audio frequencies. Also some Rotel receivers newer models aren't too shabby either. ...But the final proof is in the pudding (listening).

If i could descibe the sound of the SC-27 it would be-

Hot butter melting over a warm thick loaf of bread. Gotta love that ICE.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by saprano

If i could descibe the sound of the SC-27 it would be-

Hot butter melting over a warm thick loaf of bread. Gotta love that ICE.

Tough to argue with this kind of statement .....just trust his judgment and get yourself some ICE.

[4x12]

Originally Posted by dvdwatcher

I'm really excited and nervous about a new receiver purchase, I really like clear sound and no hassle and have read really good things about the SC 25 and SC 27 receivers from Pioneer and really like the sound of the ICE Amp in them. I had a Harman Kardon AVR 120 which I like but it obviously doesn't have all the new bells and whistles and is now dead after about 7 years, and it got really hot in my rack so the new ICE amps sound enticing because they run cooler. Also from the reviews Ive read the Elites Sound amazing, Ive always thought between the cheap speakers and mediocre reciver my system was low end so I want something good. But like most Im sure Im on a budget and need a reciever sooner than later so is the ICE Amp all that and I should save my pennies until I can afford it or should I trust in a cheaper Elite?

Hey dude, I had an older HK AVR-520 at the time this was a model (maybe two) under the flagship and I loved the warm tone of it.... still miss it at times. But the Elites (my SC-07) does sound a little brighter and clearer. It took a few days for my ears to get at ease with the new tone but know that it did, I wouldnt turn back.

And I did like Fors*. I picked up my 07 a few months before the new 27's hit the market and saved at least $350-$500! That was extra money saved going into my new MA RS6 Speaker fund!

[Irrob]

Originally Posted by 4x12

Hey dude, I had an older HK AVR-520 at the time this was a model (maybe two) under the flagship and I loved the warm tone of it.... still miss it at times. But the Elites (my SC-07) does sound a little brighter and clearer. It took a few days for my ears to get at ease with the new tone but know that it did, I wouldnt turn back.

yea when I demoed Elites along side Denons, Onkyos and HK's, I was more impressed by the Elites detail and clarity. BTW I used scenes from House of Flying Daggers.