Does a Bitstreaming PS3 (Slim) sound better than a Fat Slim with lossless audio? - Blu-ray Forum

FendersRule · 04-10-2010, 07:40 PM

I'm running a fat PS3 to my Onkyo (non bit-streamed).

My friend (who goes by the name Endymion) on the forum is saying that because I don't have a bitstreaming PS3 slim, that my audio quality is suffering.

Is this false, because I believe it IS false. I've been reading people that have upgraded to the slim hear absolutely no difference just because they are able to bit stream.

Maybe there's a lot more to this that I don't know...

Steve · 04-10-2010, 07:58 PM

It shouldn't make any difference. The only difference is that right now the audio is being decoded by the PS3. If you were bitstreaming then the audio would be decoded by the receiver. Both should decode it the same.

Dase · 04-10-2010, 08:14 PM

Bitstreaming is wayyyy better because when you bitstream the HD audio lights on your AVR are magic. They open a portal so that heaven can shine down on your setup, angels can sing your audio, and Thor himself is automatically in charge of your bass response.

jk

They are identical.

I changed from a fat to a slim. Not for bitstreaming but because the fan on the fat was too loud. The sound is identical. You can toggle between both methods on the slim and I notice no difference at all. It's the same signal, regardless of what decodes it.

solarrdadd · 04-10-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FendersRule

I'm running a fat PS3 to my Onkyo (non bit-streamed).

My friend (who goes by the name Endymion) on the forum is saying that because I don't have a bitstreaming PS3 slim, that my audio quality is suffering.

Is this false, because I believe it IS false. I've been reading people that have upgraded to the slim hear absolutely no difference just because they are able to bit stream.

Maybe there's a lot more to this that I don't know...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

It shouldn't make any difference. The only difference is that right now the audio is being decoded by the PS3. If you were bitstreaming then the audio would be decoded by the receiver. Both should decode it the same.

Steve is correct. You can tell your "friend" Endymion that he is not correct. your audio quality is not suffering. the only difference between the two when it comes to audio is that the slim will bitstream the HD audio codec over to your receiver and it will decode it and the codec name will appear in the form of a "vanity light" on your receiver screen by name. the fat will decode the HD codecs onboard and stream them to your receiver as an LPCM and your receiver "vanity light" will say something like "multichannel LPCM" (or something to that effect) it just means that a multichannel source is being streamed in via HDMI (it would say analog multichannel if you had say a blu-ray player with analog out going to the receiver analog in) the bottom line is for both methods you end up with HD lossless audio. end of story. tell Endymion Steve and I will meet him in the parking lot after class if he is unhappy with our responses!

just kidding about the parking lot, unless he wants to meet us then we'll be there!

solarrdadd · 04-10-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -dase-

Bitstreaming is wayyyy better because when you bitstream the HD audio lights on your AVR are magic. They open a portal so that heaven can shine down on your setup, angels can sing your audio, and Thor himself is automatically in charge of your bass response.

jk

They are identical.

Good one base

, but you see my avatar, so I'm gonna have to ask you to go easy on my man Thor!

Stop.....HAMMER TIME!

Dase · 04-10-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

Good one base

, but you see my avatar, so I'm gonna have to ask you to go easy on my man Thor!

Stop.....HAMMER TIME!

FendersRule · 04-10-2010, 08:21 PM

Thanks for the response guys. I think this will finally bury this unneeded hatchet, and I think this is also good info for others to know.

Endymion still kicks it with a Dolby Digital HTiB because audio "is not important enough".

and my audio quality suffers.....

All playful.

progers13 · 04-10-2010, 08:39 PM

lossless = lossless

JJ · 04-10-2010, 08:55 PM

Ask this question in any other part of the Blu-ray forum, like the Movie Releases thread, and you'll get a fight. Here in the Audio and HT sections, we know the truths, and are not very belligerent.

Steve · 04-10-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FendersRule

Thanks for the response guys. I think this will finally bury this unneeded hatchet, and I think this is also good info for others to know.

Endymion still kicks it with a Dolby Digital HTiB because audio "is not important enough".

and my audio quality suffers.....

All playful.

In case there was any doubt that he didn't know what he was talking about to begin with, see above.

quetzalcoatl · 04-10-2010, 09:41 PM

As has been pointed out lossless is lossless. The only thing that can happen is that some receivers cannot do anything with a PCM signal that they get when they can to a bitstreamed signal.

Steve · 04-10-2010, 09:58 PM

PCM is part of the HDMI 1.0 spec, so it should be covered by any current receiver that can process audio over HDMI.

Quote:

Version 1.0 to 1.2
HDMI 1.0 was released December 9, 2002 and is a single-cable digital audio/video connector interface with a maximum TMDS bandwidth of 4.9 Gbit/s. It supports up to 3.96 Gbit/s of video bandwidth (1080p/60 Hz or UXGA) and 8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio.[40] HDMI 1.1 was released on May 20, 2004 and added support for DVD-Audio.[40] HDMI 1.2 was released August 8, 2005 and added support for One Bit Audio, used on Super Audio CDs, at up to 8 channels. It also added the availability of HDMI Type A connectors for PC sources, the ability for PC sources to only support the sRGB color space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr color space, and required HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support low-voltage sources.[40][89] HDMI 1.2a was released on December 14, 2005 and fully specifies Consumer Electronic Control (CEC) features, command sets, and CEC compliance tests.[40]

Source

Big Daddy · 04-10-2010, 10:31 PM

Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion on the difference between LPCM and bitstreaming. I have posted the following information before and will do it again to hopefully clarify any misunderstanding.

Generally speaking, sending a PCM signal to a receiver may be practically better than bitstreaming the signal. I am not talking about sound quality differences here. Receivers can do more to PCM signal than to bitstream signal.

First of all, it is a good idea to read https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...io-codecs.html. There is a long section there on bitstreaming HD audio.

LAYPERSON’S GUIDE TO HD AUDIO

HDMI Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to LPCM

Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital).
The player sends the LPCM signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable.
The receiver converts the Digital LPCM signals to Analog signals (D/A chip required).
The receiver sends the analog signals to the speakers.

HDMI Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to Bitstream (the older PS3 cannot do this for HD audio)

Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
The player sends the raw unpacked signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable.
The receiver unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals.
The receiver converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required).
The receiver sends the analog signals to the speakers.

Multi-Channel Analog Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to Analog Output (see footnote)

Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc.
The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital).
The player converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required).
The player sends the analog signals to the receiver through the RCA cables.
The receiver receives the analog signals, amplifies them, and sends them to the speakers.

Which one is better? There is no significant difference between LPCM and bitsreaming. However, it may be advantageous to output audio from the player in LPCM format. In most cases, the D/A chip may have more of an effect on sound quality.

Theoretically, there is no difference in audio quality between setting the BD player to output audio in LPCM or bitstream. Practically, there are several reasons why setting the player to LPCM may be preferred.

Some receivers do not have enough processing power. If you set the player to bitstream, the receiver will have to decode the compressed audio and as a result the receiver will not have enough processing power left to do other things. Some receivers may turn the calibration program such as Audyssey off.
In the case of SACD, if the player is set to bitstream audio in SACD's native format (DSD), the receiver may not be able to use Bass Management.
Another downside to sending the HD audio codecs in bitstream is that on many players, you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. Audio commentaries and alternative-language audio may also be affected, depending on how the disc was authored. The only way to send the additional content is by allowing the disc player to perform the audio decoding itself, during which the player mixes the new material on top of the movie soundtrack for transmission in either PCM or analog format. In some cases, you may lose the lossless soundtrack. If you are watching a movie with the Bonus View features enabled, and you want to restore the high resolution audio, it may require you to stop the disc playback to go to the player’s setup menu, and that can be a big nuisance. For the Oppo BD83 player, if you turn the Secondary Audio to On in its menu, it will automatically set the audio to lossy DD or DTS.

Footnote:
When a disc player is connected to a receiver with multi-channel analog cables, the player must perform digital to analog decoding and send the analog signal to the receiver. In this case, calibration and bass management adjustments such as speaker sizes and channel levels should be done in the player's setup menus or the receiver must have bass management for the 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 ANALOG inputs. If the player lacks calibration adjustments or the receiver cannot perform adjustments for analog inputs, bass management cannot be performed.

troyus · 04-12-2010, 04:24 PM

as BD said.

Benifits of bitstreaming to amp = Shiney lights on amp (DTS HD master, etc)

Benifits of LPCM =;
1. Some receivers do not have enough processing power. If you set the player to bitstream, the receiver will have to decode the compressed audio and as a result the receiver will not have enough processing power left to do other things. Some receivers may turn the calibration program such as Audyssey off.
2. In the case of SACD, if the player is set to bitstream audio in SACD's native format (DSD), the receiver may not be able to use Bass Management.
3. Another downside to sending the HD audio codecs in bitstream is that on many players, you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. Audio commentaries and alternative-language audio may also be affected, depending on how the disc was authored. The only way to send the additional content is by allowing the disc player to perform the audio decoding itself, during which the player mixes the new material on top of the movie soundtrack for transmission in either PCM or analog format. In some cases, you may lose the lossless soundtrack. If you are watching a movie with the Bonus View features enabled, and you want to restore the high resolution audio, it may require you to stop the disc playback to go to the player’s setup menu, and that can be a big nuisance. For the Oppo BD83 player, if you turn the Secondary Audio to On in its menu, it will automatically set the audio to lossy DD or DTS.

neos_peace · 04-12-2010, 05:53 PM

I can vouch for this personally because I've done it. I used to have a fatty, and I now have a Slim. The audio difference is nothing. I hear the same thing regardless. I just went to Slim so I could see the magic lights come on my recevier.

Basically the sound is the same. I can personally vouch for this.

04-10-2010, 07:40 PM	#1
FendersRule Special Member Member since:Oct 2008 Location:ID Home Theater Gallery:16 Blu-ray collection:81 Blu-ray reviews:5 Trading Score:15	Does a Bitstreaming PS3 (Slim) sound better than a Fat Slim with lossless audio? I'm running a fat PS3 to my Onkyo (non bit-streamed). My friend (who goes by the name Endymion) on the forum is saying that because I don't have a bitstreaming PS3 slim, that my audio quality is suffering. Is this false, because I believe it IS false. I've been reading people that have upgraded to the slim hear absolutely no difference just because they are able to bit stream. Maybe there's a lot more to this that I don't know...

04-10-2010, 08:14 PM	#3
Dase Special Member Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Jan 2009 Home Theater Gallery:23 4K collection:5 Blu-ray collection:81 Blu-ray reviews: 2	Bitstreaming is wayyyy better because when you bitstream the HD audio lights on your AVR are magic. They open a portal so that heaven can shine down on your setup, angels can sing your audio, and Thor himself is automatically in charge of your bass response. jk They are identical. I changed from a fat to a slim. Not for bitstreaming but because the fan on the fat was too loud. The sound is identical. You can toggle between both methods on the slim and I notice no difference at all. It's the same signal, regardless of what decodes it. Last edited by Dase; 04-10-2010 at 08:18 PM.

04-10-2010, 10:31 PM	#13
Big Daddy Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Southern California Home Theater Gallery:79 Blu-ray collection:122 Trading Score:1	Unfortunately, there seems to be some confusion on the difference between LPCM and bitstreaming. I have posted the following information before and will do it again to hopefully clarify any misunderstanding. Generally speaking, sending a PCM signal to a receiver may be practically better than bitstreaming the signal. I am not talking about sound quality differences here. Receivers can do more to PCM signal than to bitstream signal. First of all, it is a good idea to read https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...io-codecs.html. There is a long section there on bitstreaming HD audio. LAYPERSON’S GUIDE TO HD AUDIO HDMI Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to LPCM Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc. The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital). The player sends the LPCM signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable. The receiver converts the Digital LPCM signals to Analog signals (D/A chip required). The receiver sends the analog signals to the speakers. HDMI Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to Bitstream (the older PS3 cannot do this for HD audio) Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc. The player sends the raw unpacked signals to the receiver through the HDMI cable. The receiver unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals. The receiver converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required). The receiver sends the analog signals to the speakers. Multi-Channel Analog Connection to the Receiver, Player Set to Analog Output (see footnote) Player reads the Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA signals from the disc. The player unpacks the TrueHD or DTS HD signals and converts them to LPCM (still digital). The player converts the Digital signals to Analog signal (D/A chip required). The player sends the analog signals to the receiver through the RCA cables. The receiver receives the analog signals, amplifies them, and sends them to the speakers. Which one is better? There is no significant difference between LPCM and bitsreaming. However, it may be advantageous to output audio from the player in LPCM format. In most cases, the D/A chip may have more of an effect on sound quality. Theoretically, there is no difference in audio quality between setting the BD player to output audio in LPCM or bitstream. Practically, there are several reasons why setting the player to LPCM may be preferred. Some receivers do not have enough processing power. If you set the player to bitstream, the receiver will have to decode the compressed audio and as a result the receiver will not have enough processing power left to do other things. Some receivers may turn the calibration program such as Audyssey off. In the case of SACD, if the player is set to bitstream audio in SACD's native format (DSD), the receiver may not be able to use Bass Management. Another downside to sending the HD audio codecs in bitstream is that on many players, you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. Audio commentaries and alternative-language audio may also be affected, depending on how the disc was authored. The only way to send the additional content is by allowing the disc player to perform the audio decoding itself, during which the player mixes the new material on top of the movie soundtrack for transmission in either PCM or analog format. In some cases, you may lose the lossless soundtrack. If you are watching a movie with the Bonus View features enabled, and you want to restore the high resolution audio, it may require you to stop the disc playback to go to the player’s setup menu, and that can be a big nuisance. For the Oppo BD83 player, if you turn the Secondary Audio to On in its menu, it will automatically set the audio to lossy DD or DTS. Footnote: When a disc player is connected to a receiver with multi-channel analog cables, the player must perform digital to analog decoding and send the analog signal to the receiver. In this case, calibration and bass management adjustments such as speaker sizes and channel levels should be done in the player's setup menus or the receiver must have bass management for the 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 ANALOG inputs. If the player lacks calibration adjustments or the receiver cannot perform adjustments for analog inputs, bass management cannot be performed. Last edited by Big Daddy; 04-10-2010 at 10:33 PM.

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04-10-2010, 07:58 PM	#2
Steve Blu-ray Knight Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:May 2008 Location:Anna, TX 4K collection:128 Blu-ray collection:416 Trading Score:41	It shouldn't make any difference. The only difference is that right now the audio is being decoded by the PS3. If you were bitstreaming then the audio would be decoded by the receiver. Both should decode it the same.

04-10-2010, 08:21 PM	#7
FendersRule Special Member Member since:Oct 2008 Location:ID Home Theater Gallery:16 Blu-ray collection:81 Blu-ray reviews:5 Trading Score:15	Thanks for the response guys. I think this will finally bury this unneeded hatchet, and I think this is also good info for others to know. Endymion still kicks it with a Dolby Digital HTiB because audio "is not important enough". and my audio quality suffers..... All playful.

04-10-2010, 08:39 PM	#8
progers13 Blu-ray Baron Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Aug 2009 Location:Tampa, FL Home Theater Gallery:83 Blu-ray collection:337 Blu-ray reviews: 3 Trading Score:2	lossless = lossless

04-10-2010, 08:55 PM	#9
JJ Blu-ray Count Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Miami, FL Home Theater Gallery:99 4K collection:619 Blu-ray collection:1293 DVD collection:31 Digital collection:5 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:203	Ask this question in any other part of the Blu-ray forum, like the Movie Releases thread, and you'll get a fight. Here in the Audio and HT sections, we know the truths, and are not very belligerent.

04-10-2010, 09:41 PM	#11
quetzalcoatl Special Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Grants Pass, OR	As has been pointed out lossless is lossless. The only thing that can happen is that some receivers cannot do anything with a PCM signal that they get when they can to a bitstreamed signal.

04-12-2010, 04:24 PM	#14
troyus Active Member Member since:Jan 2010 Blu-ray collection:248	as BD said. Benifits of bitstreaming to amp = Shiney lights on amp (DTS HD master, etc) Benifits of LPCM =; 1. Some receivers do not have enough processing power. If you set the player to bitstream, the receiver will have to decode the compressed audio and as a result the receiver will not have enough processing power left to do other things. Some receivers may turn the calibration program such as Audyssey off. 2. In the case of SACD, if the player is set to bitstream audio in SACD's native format (DSD), the receiver may not be able to use Bass Management. 3. Another downside to sending the HD audio codecs in bitstream is that on many players, you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. Audio commentaries and alternative-language audio may also be affected, depending on how the disc was authored. The only way to send the additional content is by allowing the disc player to perform the audio decoding itself, during which the player mixes the new material on top of the movie soundtrack for transmission in either PCM or analog format. In some cases, you may lose the lossless soundtrack. If you are watching a movie with the Bonus View features enabled, and you want to restore the high resolution audio, it may require you to stop the disc playback to go to the player’s setup menu, and that can be a big nuisance. For the Oppo BD83 player, if you turn the Secondary Audio to On in its menu, it will automatically set the audio to lossy DD or DTS.

04-12-2010, 05:53 PM	#15
neos_peace Special Member Member since:Jul 2008 Location:Shamokin Dam, Pa Home Theater Gallery:14 Blu-ray collection:279 Trading Score:1	I can vouch for this personally because I've done it. I used to have a fatty, and I now have a Slim. The audio difference is nothing. I hear the same thing regardless. I just went to Slim so I could see the magic lights come on my recevier. Basically the sound is the same. I can personally vouch for this.

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