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Old 08-05-2010, 02:01 PM   #1
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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Default Why do 2-D versions of 3-D discs have moving black bars on the sides?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/3d-blu-ray...ml#post3454296

^any1 know if Ice Age 3-D, Coraline3 3-D all have this issue when playing back the 2-D version?

i'm ready to go 3-D...except that this is a showstopper imho. i'd hate to buy/own 2 copies of the same movie, 1 for 2D and 1 for 3-D.
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Old 08-05-2010, 04:08 PM   #2
fitprod fitprod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
https://forum.blu-ray.com/3d-blu-ray...ml#post3454296

^any1 know if Ice Age 3-D, Coraline3 3-D all have this issue when playing back the 2-D version?

i'm ready to go 3-D...except that this is a showstopper imho. i'd hate to buy/own 2 copies of the same movie, 1 for 2D and 1 for 3-D.
This is unavoidable due to the image offset that is built in between the two masters used to created the 3-D. (That1guys' explanation is a perfect description of the problem inherent with extracting the 2-D image from the 3-D disc.)

That is probably why Disney is packaging the 2-D version of Christmas Carol with the 3-D version. They're a bit of a stickler when it comes to picture quality.

fitprod

Last edited by fitprod; 08-05-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 08-05-2010, 04:24 PM   #3
Jimmy Smith Jimmy Smith is offline
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I think this is a bit of an overhyped problem. Fact is the the side bars are extremely thin and only noticeable on a television with virtually zero overscan. It seems to me like a problem hardly worth the huge waste of space that separately encoding a 2D version would be. Id prefer that space be used for more extras thank you very much.
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:37 PM   #4
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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just like a confirmation if every BD3D will have this. i will want to own the 2D and BD3D if that is the case. i view BDs on my HTPC and there is no overscan there... so i WILL notice this annoying issue and yes i'm freakin' OCD TO THE MAX!

i'm pissed that BD3D consortium didn't think about this whole thing thoroughly, so as to stabilize the black lines
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:00 PM   #5
fitprod fitprod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith View Post
I think this is a bit of an overhyped problem. Fact is the the side bars are extremely thin and only noticeable on a television with virtually zero overscan. It seems to me like a problem hardly worth the huge waste of space that separately encoding a 2D version would be. Id prefer that space be used for more extras thank you very much.
If they're smart, they'll just package the separate 2D version with the 3D version, as Disney will be doing with A Christmas Carol.

It's not like the studios wont be producing 2D BDs of these films, that's where 99.9999% of their Blu-ray sales will be coming from.

fitprod
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Old 08-06-2010, 12:14 AM   #6
that1guystudios that1guystudios is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
just like a confirmation if every BD3D will have this. i will want to own the 2D and BD3D if that is the case. i view BDs on my HTPC and there is no overscan there... so i WILL notice this annoying issue and yes i'm freakin' OCD TO THE MAX!

i'm pissed that BD3D consortium didn't think about this whole thing thoroughly, so as to stabilize the black lines
It has nothing to do with the format of the disc, or stabalization of the black lines. It is part of the film itself. You can crop the black bars off, but you lose some image. If you turn the 2D to 3D conversion on in a Samsung TV it adds black bars to the sides that move in and out based on depth. The bars move the depth plane in and out of the TV. You have to have a stopping point for the picture outside of the last pixel on the TV or you lose depth perception.
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Old 08-06-2010, 12:16 AM   #7
that1guystudios that1guystudios is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitprod View Post
If they're smart, they'll just package the separate 2D version with the 3D version, as Disney will be doing with A Christmas Carol.

It's not like the studios wont be producing 2D BDs of these films, that's where 99.9999% of their Blu-ray sales will be coming from.

fitprod
I think that packaging 2 separate versions is the best way to go as well.
It's not like it costs them studios a lot more to make an additional disc now that the replication fees have gone down...and I personally don't mind having two discs if they are optimized for different formats, and both are compatible with 2D displays. Heck, I could even give away my 2D copy to a friend or family member. Who wouldn't want a free Blu-ray?
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Old 08-07-2010, 01:07 AM   #8
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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it absolutely has to do w/the format itself. i don't watch to watch a BD3D that promises a pristine 2D experience WITHOUT buying a separate 2D disc to have black lines on the left and right. who the hell wrote the part of hte spec. that did this? it's pretty stupid. pretty much a hindsight instead of integrated.

regardless of how the technology works, the BD3D containing the 2D movie should be pristine and flawless MINUS the black left and right bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guypictures View Post
It has nothing to do with the format of the disc, or stabalization of the black lines. It is part of the film itself. You can crop the black bars off, but you lose some image. If you turn the 2D to 3D conversion on in a Samsung TV it adds black bars to the sides that move in and out based on depth. The bars move the depth plane in and out of the TV. You have to have a stopping point for the picture outside of the last pixel on the TV or you lose depth perception.
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guypictures View Post
I think that packaging 2 separate versions is the best way to go as well.
It's not like it costs them studios a lot more to make an additional disc now that the replication fees have gone down...
If people buy this version.... then sell the 2-D version on Ebay..... the studio is losing out on potential sales...... as you said "Who doesn't want a free Blu-ray" if you give it to your friend...... what's the chances your friend is going to watch it, like it, and say "Heck... this is a good movie, I think I'll go buy it at the store for $20 so I can get the case/cover-art"



Not very likely eh?

EDIT:

for what it's worth.... I think packaging the two versions together is the best way...... then perhaps people who aren't "3-D Ready" who want to eventually upgrade, could watch a 'proper' 2D version in the meantime..... (although I haven't seen the black bars being discussed here.... so I don't know how much it'd bother me)

Last edited by Beta Man; 08-07-2010 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 08-07-2010, 04:14 AM   #10
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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Cloudy BD3D is on sale @K-Mart next week starting Sunday. so i'll report back once i have it i already have Cloudy regular BD.
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Old 08-07-2010, 04:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
it absolutely has to do w/the format itself. i don't watch to watch a BD3D that promises a pristine 2D experience WITHOUT buying a separate 2D disc to have black lines on the left and right. who the hell wrote the part of hte spec. that did this? it's pretty stupid. pretty much a hindsight instead of integrated.

regardless of how the technology works, the BD3D containing the 2D movie should be pristine and flawless MINUS the black left and right bars.
The black bars on the sides are no more a part of the Blu-ray 3D spec than the black bars on the top and bottom are. Again, It is not a part of the 3D blu-ray specs. There are clips presented without black bars on the sides. It is done by simply cropping the sides of the image....if you don't want to see the bars on the side, disable overscan. It's not the end of the world! Besides, as I've said before, if you want the best 2D version possible, you want to buy a separate 2D version. That's why Disney encoding 2 separate discs is the best way to go.

Last edited by that1guystudios; 08-07-2010 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:03 AM   #12
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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i now own both the 2D vs. 3D of Cloudy here are the screen caps from a scene where the cam isn't moving, so the exact frame doens't matter but it's very close anyways (just seconds). so look at the 2D verion of the BD3D, that's awful. i wouldn't ever just own that. i'd want the 2D regular done properly.

this shows the lackadaisical attitude of the BD Consortium that 3D was added as an afterthought.

my concern is for future BD3D titles that HAVE NO 2D versions! that would be freakin' awful. in these day and age MOST HDTVs basically have 0 overcan. even if there were, it can be adjusted. but the black bars are so offensive that overscan or not you'll see it! that's freakin' annoying!

this is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR problem.
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:40 AM   #13
Jimmy Smith Jimmy Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post




i now own both the 2D vs. 3D of Cloudy here are the screen caps from a scene where the cam isn't moving, so the exact frame doens't matter but it's very close anyways (just seconds). so look at the 2D verion of the BD3D, that's awful. i wouldn't ever just own that. i'd want the 2D regular done properly.

this shows the lackadaisical attitude of the BD Consortium that 3D was added as an afterthought.

my concern is for future BD3D titles that HAVE NO 2D versions! that would be freakin' awful. in these day and age MOST HDTVs basically have 0 overcan. even if there were, it can be adjusted. but the black bars are so offensive that overscan or not you'll see it! that's freakin' annoying!

this is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR problem.
I own the the 3D disc for Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs but don't have 3D television yet. My DLP television shows absolutely no side-bars but my television admittingly does have some slight overscan. Ive never watched the 2D only Blu-Ray to compare but the 2D version on the disc delievers a great high definition presentation that easily bested the HD broadcast version.

I wouldn't call it major. Even for a television with 0% overscan the side bars are incredibly thin and are hard to see. Still they are definutely there. Its also worth noting the angle is slightly different (assuming those shots are truely exactly the same). However they aren't bad enough to justify separately encoding 2D versions given the vast space that is saved. Separately encoding a 2D version means the movie will take up roughly 66% more space on the already space hogging 3D. This would make fitting any movie over 90 minutes on a BD-50 incredibly dificult. Since I think using multiple discs should be avoided whenever possible I think extracting the 2D version from the 3D version seems to be a far superior option.

Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 08-13-2010 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 04:01 AM   #14
JediFonger JediFonger is offline
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you can adjust your HDTV i think to 0 overscan. overscan will be our 'pan&scan' issue. so many battles to fight on Hi-Def front: DNR, 3D, letterbox, overscan, etc.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:59 AM   #15
Bravia3D Bravia3D is offline
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Question Why are there moving black bars on the sides of some 3D discs?

After watching Deep Sea last month I noticed on numerous scenes it had a darker bar on each side of the screen about the width of a ruler. I could still see the picture through these bars but it was quite annoying as they were darker than the rest of the picture and pretty noticeable. At times when the scene changed they would be there, and then go away after it changed again. Sometimes they were more narrow as well.
I figured it's just the movie but I watched Bolt last night and this movie had them almost all the way through (but a bit smaller)
A few other IMAX movies had them as well, but not for long or that bad.

So I am curious, is it just the movies or the way they converted them? I haven't really noticed this on some other movies but I am hoping it's not my TV?! I have a Sony Bravia LX900, doe's this show on anyone elses TV's? If so, what is the cause?
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:46 PM   #16
Truong Truong is offline
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Sometimes with 3D photography the parallax needs to be corrected for more comfortable viewing. With parallax correction, the images will need to be cropped so that objects at the edge of the screen don't appear only in one eye's view but not the other, which can cause discomfort to the viewer, whose brain goes, "wtf? I'm only seeing object x at the edge of the screen with one eye but not the other."

Take for example a tree trunk in the foreground at the very far left of the screen. The left eye image or shot has the trunk in it, but the right eye image does not. This can cause uncomfortable (sometimes headache-inducing ) 3D viewing. To make the viewing more comfortable, the left side of the left-eye image is cropped (to remove the trunk), and the right side of the right-eye image is cropped so that its aspect ratio matches that of the left-eye image. When the two cropped images are superimposed on each other, you will see the two faint vertical bars at the left and right side of the screen, which are there because of the cropping.

I've been taking 3D photographs for a while, and now I have the 3D point-and-shoot Fujifilm video camera too, so I know what those black bars are all about. I haven't really noticed these bars on my TV (Panasonic), myself, and I haven't watched any of the movies you mentioned, but I'm pretty certain what you see on your screen is normal!

There are other reasons for cropping stereoscopic images also, but I won't get into it here, since it's hard to describe verbally - much easier to simply show why!

Last edited by Truong; 10-23-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:59 AM   #17
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Default IMAX Deep Sea 3D Blu-ray black bar issue

I have a Sony 55HX800 3D TV, and while watching this movie I got for free in Sony's promo, a couple of the scenes have an annoying semi-transparent black bar on the right side of the TV, measuring at least a few inches.

I'm hoping this isn't an issue with my TV. Has anyone else experienced this, on this movie or a different one?

Thanks for the help.
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenseOffender View Post
I have a Sony 55HX800 3D TV, and while watching this movie I got for free in Sony's promo, a couple of the scenes have an annoying semi-transparent black bar on the right side of the TV, measuring at least a few inches.

I'm hoping this isn't an issue with my TV. Has anyone else experienced this, on this movie or a different one?

Thanks for the help.
I think this is what I was trying to explain in the Bolt 3D thread, on my samsung. Each side has a vertical line measuring like a inch or so which are more noticeable when taking the glasses off...however the right hand side is almost always visible and it's annoying!

It's something to do with the 3D layering I think..the double image, it's like it isn't lined up correctly!

It only happens in certain films..and sometimes it's barely noticeable and doesn't effect the viewing at all...but in Bolt it's awful.

I was gonna ring Samsung today and get some adivce.
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Old 11-19-2010, 05:37 AM   #19
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We should really be pretty vocal about this and the ghosting issues with some movies to the studios. Also the reviews on this site should point these fault too.
If Sony can put out 3D movies with out side bars and almost no ghosting and amazing 3D then so can everyone else. I have already passed on like 5 3D movies I would have bought day one because of various problems. Last air bender and clash of titans because of no 3D effect. I passed on My bloody valentine because too much ghosting. Passed on a christmas carol because of side bars and will do the same to Bolt and Alice if they exhibit the same.
On the other hand I will even double dip if they have their act together like Sony as I did with the amazing Open season. I also plan a double dip for Coraline 3D.
Its a shame really because Disney has many of my favorites I would love to own in 3D. I already own 21 2D Disney movies and cant think of one that I wouldn't want to own in 3D.
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:41 PM   #20
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I agree 100%. I started a thread in another forum asking "Can You Live With Ghosting?" I should have added black bars to the title also.
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