DTS-HD MA on regular DTS receiver, what's happening exactly? - Blu-ray Forum

GotToyota? · 12-25-2010, 10:13 PM

I have a standard DTS receiver, an Insignia NS-RS100. It is not capable of accepting high definition audio from what I know. However on all my BD's that have a DTS-HD MA master track, it plays on my receiver no problem. Since I pretty much know it's not capable of playing high definition audio, what is happening here exactly? Is the audio track being converted to standard DTS via the receiver or is the PS3 doing this conversion for me? The PS3 is connected to the receiver via an optical cable.

Riddler95 · 12-25-2010, 10:48 PM

When ever you send a DTS-HD or a Dolby TrueHD signal to a older Non-HD Receiver through an Optical Connection, the Audio will get Downmixed to a standard DTS or Dolby Digital Signal.

BIslander · 12-25-2010, 10:58 PM

dts-MA and TrueHD are backwards compatible with older equipment. DTS-HD contains a lossy DTS core that gets sent over optical. TrueHD has a separate embedded DD 5.1 track that gets sent over optical. The two companies use different techniques to achieve similar results. (Downmixing is not the right term, btw, as that means reducing the number of channels.)

Audiophile_At_Birth · 12-25-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander

dts-MA and TrueHD are backwards compatible with older equipment. DTS-HD contains a lossy DTS core that gets sent over optical. TrueHD has a separate embedded DD 5.1 track that gets sent over optical. The two companies use different techniques to achieve similar results. (Downmixing is not the right term, btw, as that means reducing the number of channels.)

Down Sampling??

ryoohki · 12-25-2010, 11:17 PM

DTS encode the DTS 1.5 mbits, witch is compatible with normal DTS receiver. Then it use a compare sequence between the 1.5 and loseless and add tag to it, to make it equal to the loseless one. DTS approach use more power (CPU) than Dolby, that's why when it was release only a handful of decoders where able to process it. It also makes the file a little bit smaller than Dolby witch encode 2 separated files put together (one Loseless, on DD back compatible).

From what i understand, the DTS tool seem also better to encode (easier) 7.1 and seemless branching because not a lot of TrueHD title are 7.1..

BIslander · 12-25-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiophile_At_Birth

Down Sampling??

Not that either.

Downsampling refers to a reduction in the PCM sampling rate. A 96kHz original may be downsampled for output at 48kHz, for example.

I don't know that there's actually a term to describe how Dolby and DTS handle backwards compatibilty. They each output a legacy version of the soundtrack that works with older equipment. You get good old fashioned DD 5.1 and DTS, athough at higher bitrates than you get on DVD. Those legacy encodes are not created on the fly. They are created at the same time that the lossless encoding is done.

sptrout · 12-26-2010, 01:32 PM

From DTS' web site:

"DTS-HD encoded content contains a DTS surround sound "core", plus an "extension" that delivers even higher quality. When you play a DTS-HD encoded disc through an older DTS-capable receiver, the DTS-HD extension is simply ignored and only the DTS core is decoded — but not at ordinary quality levels. Your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. Meaning? You get immediate compatibility and a boost in quality."

http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats...ter_Audio.aspx

Since day one, all DTS decoders have had the capability of decoding DTS tracks up to 1.5Mbps, which just happens to be the bitrate of the "Core." Back in the old DVD days, nearly all DTS tracks were encoded at about 1/2 of what is now called the core bitrate, but there would be a DVD once in a great while that was encoded at 1.5Mbps. I remember folks trying to find these gems like they were looking for the Holy Grail.

Anyway, any DTS capable decoder can easily handle DTS-HD MA, or at least some parts of it.

Cripesdude · 11-15-2016, 06:04 PM

Hi guys - great thread... just wanted to add one more question.

I know if you are playing DTS-HD (or the Dolby equivalent) encoded content through a receiver which can't handle it, it just uses the "core" mix, as per this:

"DTS-HD encoded content contains a DTS surround sound "core", plus an "extension" that delivers even higher quality. When you play a DTS-HD encoded disc through an older DTS-capable receiver, the DTS-HD extension is simply ignored and only the DTS core is decoded — but not at ordinary quality levels. Your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. Meaning? You get immediate compatibility and a boost in quality."

My question is where is the split happening? Does the player note the receiver and send only the core mix, or does the receiver have to do the work?

I ask this, because what does this mean for using a digital optical connection to transmit the audio? I get that digital optical can transmit older 5.1 mixes fine (a "core" mix)... but they can't handle newer "HD" ones, right? So basically, would a digital optical cable work? Would you get "core" 5.1 sound from a more advanced "HD" source via a digital optical cable, or does it need to be that the "HD" source material is transmitted via HDMI and the receiver then strips out the "core" 5.1 mix?

I want to see if I can use a receiver without "HD" codecs and only a digital optical in with newer "HD" source blurays and get 5.1 sound... but suspect that the receiver, not the player, does the work - so it'd have to be an HDMI connection...but maybe not!...

Finally, if I did use digital optical anyway and it wasn't able to deliver a "core" 5.1 mix, what would I get instead... stereo, nothing?

(PS, the receiver I have does have the appropriate speakers for 5.1, there's basically no HDMI in).

chip75 · 11-15-2016, 06:13 PM

You won't have any issues using a digital coaxial or Toshlink cables from player to receiver, you'll be able to get Dolby Digital or DTS without any issues. The only thing to be aware is that if you select LPCM as your player's output you'll only get 2.0 through to your receiver.

As to the decoding it depends on your settings, if you select the receiver to do all the work it will probably extract the compatible audio. Otherwise the player will do it.

I use both types of cables to my Yamaha receiver without any issues.

Cripesdude · 11-15-2016, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chip75

You won't have any issues using a digital coaxial or Toshlink cables from player to receiver, you'll be able to get Dolby Digital or DTS without any issues. The only thing to be aware is that if you select LPCM as your player's output you'll only get 2.0 through to your receiver.

As to the decoding it depends on your settings, if you select the receiver to do all the work it will probably extract the compatible audio. Otherwise the player will do it.

I use both types of cables to my Yamaha receiver without any issues.

Wow! Thanks for the quick reply! So no issues with a digital optical cable then! My issue will be the player... I'll have to check the settings... it might be LPCM only (it's an old player)...

-update: It's a Samsung with PCM... and Bitstream (Re-encode DTS), and Bitstream (Audiophile)... so either Bitstream should do the 5.1 job! Yay!

chip75 · 11-15-2016, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cripesdude

Wow! Thanks for the quick reply! So no issues with a digital optical cable then! My issue will be the player... I'll have to check the settings... it might be LPCM only (it's an old player)...

-update: It's a Samsung with PCM... and Bitstream (Re-encode DTS), and Bitstream (Audiophile)... so either Bitstream should do the 5.1 job! Yay!

You're welcome. I think my older Samsung has those options and I've never run into any problems.

12-25-2010, 10:13 PM	#1
GotToyota? Senior Member Member since:Jan 2008 Blu-ray collection:19 Trading Score:29	DTS-HD MA on regular DTS receiver, what's happening exactly? I have a standard DTS receiver, an Insignia NS-RS100. It is not capable of accepting high definition audio from what I know. However on all my BD's that have a DTS-HD MA master track, it plays on my receiver no problem. Since I pretty much know it's not capable of playing high definition audio, what is happening here exactly? Is the audio track being converted to standard DTS via the receiver or is the PS3 doing this conversion for me? The PS3 is connected to the receiver via an optical cable.

12-25-2010, 10:48 PM	#2
Riddler95 Expert Member Member since:Apr 2009	When ever you send a DTS-HD or a Dolby TrueHD signal to a older Non-HD Receiver through an Optical Connection, the Audio will get Downmixed to a standard DTS or Dolby Digital Signal. Last edited by Riddler95; 09-04-2011 at 09:59 PM.

11-15-2016, 06:04 PM	#8
Cripesdude Member Member since:May 2016	Hi guys - great thread... just wanted to add one more question. I know if you are playing DTS-HD (or the Dolby equivalent) encoded content through a receiver which can't handle it, it just uses the "core" mix, as per this: "DTS-HD encoded content contains a DTS surround sound "core", plus an "extension" that delivers even higher quality. When you play a DTS-HD encoded disc through an older DTS-capable receiver, the DTS-HD extension is simply ignored and only the DTS core is decoded — but not at ordinary quality levels. Your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. Meaning? You get immediate compatibility and a boost in quality." My question is where is the split happening? Does the player note the receiver and send only the core mix, or does the receiver have to do the work? I ask this, because what does this mean for using a digital optical connection to transmit the audio? I get that digital optical can transmit older 5.1 mixes fine (a "core" mix)... but they can't handle newer "HD" ones, right? So basically, would a digital optical cable work? Would you get "core" 5.1 sound from a more advanced "HD" source via a digital optical cable, or does it need to be that the "HD" source material is transmitted via HDMI and the receiver then strips out the "core" 5.1 mix? I want to see if I can use a receiver without "HD" codecs and only a digital optical in with newer "HD" source blurays and get 5.1 sound... but suspect that the receiver, not the player, does the work - so it'd have to be an HDMI connection...but maybe not!... Finally, if I did use digital optical anyway and it wasn't able to deliver a "core" 5.1 mix, what would I get instead... stereo, nothing? (PS, the receiver I have does have the appropriate speakers for 5.1, there's basically no HDMI in). Last edited by Cripesdude; 11-15-2016 at 06:11 PM.

12-25-2010, 10:58 PM	#3
BIslander Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Bainbridge Island, WA	dts-MA and TrueHD are backwards compatible with older equipment. DTS-HD contains a lossy DTS core that gets sent over optical. TrueHD has a separate embedded DD 5.1 track that gets sent over optical. The two companies use different techniques to achieve similar results. (Downmixing is not the right term, btw, as that means reducing the number of channels.)

12-25-2010, 11:17 PM	#5
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	DTS encode the DTS 1.5 mbits, witch is compatible with normal DTS receiver. Then it use a compare sequence between the 1.5 and loseless and add tag to it, to make it equal to the loseless one. DTS approach use more power (CPU) than Dolby, that's why when it was release only a handful of decoders where able to process it. It also makes the file a little bit smaller than Dolby witch encode 2 separated files put together (one Loseless, on DD back compatible). From what i understand, the DTS tool seem also better to encode (easier) 7.1 and seemless branching because not a lot of TrueHD title are 7.1..

12-26-2010, 01:32 PM	#7
sptrout Active Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Spring, TX	From DTS' web site: "DTS-HD encoded content contains a DTS surround sound "core", plus an "extension" that delivers even higher quality. When you play a DTS-HD encoded disc through an older DTS-capable receiver, the DTS-HD extension is simply ignored and only the DTS core is decoded — but not at ordinary quality levels. Your older receiver will play back DTS-HD material with DTS surround audio at twice the data rate of other DVD video surround formats. Meaning? You get immediate compatibility and a boost in quality." http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats...ter_Audio.aspx Since day one, all DTS decoders have had the capability of decoding DTS tracks up to 1.5Mbps, which just happens to be the bitrate of the "Core." Back in the old DVD days, nearly all DTS tracks were encoded at about 1/2 of what is now called the core bitrate, but there would be a DVD once in a great while that was encoded at 1.5Mbps. I remember folks trying to find these gems like they were looking for the Holy Grail. Anyway, any DTS capable decoder can easily handle DTS-HD MA, or at least some parts of it.

11-15-2016, 06:13 PM	#9
chip75 Blu-ray Grand Duke Top contributor Member since:Oct 2010 Location:Wales 4K collection:304 Blu-ray collection:3100 DVD collection:1782 iTunes collection:230 Trading Score:9	You won't have any issues using a digital coaxial or Toshlink cables from player to receiver, you'll be able to get Dolby Digital or DTS without any issues. The only thing to be aware is that if you select LPCM as your player's output you'll only get 2.0 through to your receiver. As to the decoding it depends on your settings, if you select the receiver to do all the work it will probably extract the compatible audio. Otherwise the player will do it. I use both types of cables to my Yamaha receiver without any issues.

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