True 4K Blu-ray - why I will mostly skip if released

[Ruined]

Hi all,
So, with the advent of 4K there is the likely chance we will see physical media @ 4k in 2014 as the BDA has stated they are debating this as we speak. Personally, though, I am finding it hard to get excited about this tech. Reasons:

1) JOE KANE of Video Essentials/DVE fame, said outright in his testing you need a 120" screen before you even start to notice any real benefit of 4k over 2k (1080p) at normal viewing distances. This is an extremely trustworthy source who has been a video expert for a long time. Now, I actually have a 120" screen. But this is telling of how (little) improvement there will be with BD > BD 4k compared to say DVD > BD.

2) RESOLUTION in most MASTERS just isn't there, and the studios don't want to spend money to do restorations - All I have to do is look at my Blu-ray library. Most of the catalog films I have just barely get to effective 1080p resolution if lucky. There are some exceptions that could benefit from more res, sure, like some Warner/Sony/Criterions that are mastered in 4k. But the vast majority are mastered in 2k and some of those look like they have an effective resolution of 720p with the EE/DNR applied (and in some more rare cases don't look any better than a DVD!) So, aside from some of the newer movies and the rare exception where studios have spent a buck on 4k restoration I don't see the effective resolution being there on the vast majority of titles. And if the studio couldn't spend the money to restore for Blu-ray, why in the heck would they do so for an even more niche 4k market?

3) TWILIGHT TIME / limited release model is telling of catalog Blu-ray low sales - So, you are telling me that massive box office hits like Sleepless in Seattle, Philadelphia, and As Good As it Gets need a 3000 copy limited release @ $30/ea to make a profit? These limited releases Sony and other companies have farmed out to 3rd parties like twilight time indicate to me that some of these catalog titles are deemed unprofitable through the standard retail sell through model. So with an even smaller niche market of 4K I don't see how they are going to sell any copies of these movies, and likely if they go to twilight time we will see the price inflated to $50 or some ridiculous number like that.

4) MORE DRM - You just know this is coming. With the studios adding Cinavia on top of things after deeming BD+ was not good enough and 4K BD requiring all new hardware, you know a new and more advanced helping of intrusive DRM will be on the way. No thanks.

5) MOVIE THEATERS with MUCH LARGER SCREENS USE 2k/1080p - Very simply, if a movie theater with a screen many times larger than mine looks amazing with 1080p, why do I need 4k?

6) COST vs BENEFIT - Given all of the above and the fact that 4k will require display, source, and individual movie upgrades, I am finding it hard to see how the benefit outweighs the cost.


So, if 4K ever gets down to normal prices and display technology evolves in other areas where a 4k display might make sense I could be interested in the future. But, it won't be like DVD to Blu-ray. It will only be a few select titles where the mastering allows for a significant difference to be seen, but from what I have seen over the course of Blu-ray mastering my thoughts are that pool will be a small one.

[Mansinthe]

i have already a 108inch 16:9 screen. so i will probably upgrade in the future with upcoming 4k projectors that already have hdmi 2.0 might as well get a bigger screen if i movie to a bigger flat.

it will still look awesome with reality creation (sony) to watch my already good looking blurays in upscaled 4k

probably all people that are against 4k have only small TVs 60 inch and below (lol) or dont have the many to upgrade the hardware

i want to watch my favorite movies in the best possible quality. and a lot of these movies are classics mastered in 4k and more (criterion) or newer mainstream movies from labels like sony that look already pretty awesome in 1080p.

[Ruined]

Hi,
1080p upscaled to 4k is going to look worse than straight 1080p given the same quality display components - likely a bit softer in actuality; you can't reliably invent new detail that did not exist originally. The reason you'd need to upscale, though, with a 4k projector is due to the fixed resolution of digital projectors. This is why we need to upscale DVDs to 1080p for 1080p digital projectors.

In other words, if you spend $20,000 on a 4k projector and $20,000 on a 1080p projector to watch Blu-ray Discs, the 1080p projector will likely look significantly better.

I am not against 4k but I am not for it either. I don't see it as particularly useful for the home market, it appears more a marketing gimmick to sell TVs. For the record I have a 120" & 73" screens in my two home theaters and my preamps are 4k ready.

[Skippy Bibble]

"probably all people that are against 4k have only small TVs 60 inch and below (lol) or dont have the many to upgrade the hardware"

For me, it's a cost to benefit ratio. As the cost of these begins to drop, I may consider getting one.
Till then, I'll wait

[blujacket]

Once the rave reviews start pouring in, and hardware and software is reasonable, you'll change your mind.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by blujacket

Once the rave reviews start pouring in, and hardware and software is reasonable, you'll change your mind.

Perhaps, though I tend not to get caught up in hype and reviews, making decisions based on merits and logic instead.

But even if you disregard all other points, my point on masters stands - if studios can't afford a true 1080p effective resolution master for the majority of films made in the 20th century for what is a comparatively massive base on Blu-ray, I don't see how they will for a 4k niche market. Heck, they can't even afford to release blockbuster films on Blu-ray without resorting to 3000 limited release editions because they are catalog drama or romcom titles! It doesn't bode well for an even more niche and expensive format.

I actually see a bigger potential for quality increase being OLED with PDP TVs and evolution of high powered LED DLP projectors. Doesn't matter if they are 1080p or 4k, but the latter may come with these technologies just to increase marketing potential.

[roar]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Hi,
1080p upscaled to 4k is going to look worse than straight 1080p given the same quality display components - likely a bit softer in actuality; you can't reliably invent new detail that did not exist originally. The reason you'd need to upscale, though, with a 4k projector is due to the fixed resolution of digital projectors. This is why we need to upscale DVDs to 1080p for 1080p digital projectors.

In other words, if you spend $20,000 on a 4k projector and $20,000 on a 1080p projector to watch Blu-ray Discs, the 1080p projector will likely look significantly better.

I am not against 4k but I am not for it either. I don't see it as particularly useful for the home market, it appears more a marketing gimmick to sell TVs. For the record I have a 120" & 73" screens in my two home theaters and my preamps are 4k ready.

I haven't seen a $20k projector in a long time... But I am not following your logic here. Would you not have made the same argument that a $20k 480p projector would have made a DVD look better than a $20k 1080p projector for the same reasons? Having not done the test myself I just can't imagine this to be true. What few reviews I've read of the true 4k Sony projector is that it does a great job up converting blu ray.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Hi,
1080p upscaled to 4k is going to look worse than straight 1080p given the same quality display components - likely a bit softer in actuality; you can't reliably invent new detail that did not exist originally. The reason you'd need to upscale, though, with a 4k projector is due to the fixed resolution of digital projectors. This is why we need to upscale DVDs to 1080p for 1080p digital projectors.

In other words, if you spend $20,000 on a 4k projector and $20,000 on a 1080p projector to watch Blu-ray Discs, the 1080p projector will likely look significantly better.

I am not against 4k but I am not for it either. I don't see it as particularly useful for the home market, it appears more a marketing gimmick to sell TVs. For the record I have a 120" & 73" screens in my two home theaters and my preamps are 4k ready.

that is not true. Yes you can't magically add detail. But 4k is 2x 1080p in every direction. So worst case scenario it adds and destroys nothing, since the easiest way to upscale would be to have the same thing in the 4 pixels, this is not like DVD on a 1080p display where some processing is definitely needed and some detail can be killed because of that.

[Mansinthe]

dont forget sonys reality creation that does not simply "add" the same pixels again.. times have changed since the first DVD upscalers...

i dont care how many people bad mouth 4k now, it will be like back then when bluray arrived and most people said "i will only upgrade my favorite movies "

i wont spend 20k on a 4k projector but these will be cheaper in a few years from now. most likely around 5-6k $

[thelwig14]

I agree with the analysis in regards to our eyes won't be able to tell a difference in anything below 120 inches. So that in itself pretty much eliminates most of the consumer market.

However, as someone who has access to a theater that uses 4k, the difference is very noticeable. Doesn't mean the usual 2k theater sucks, it is just a pretty big difference for me. And for anyone to argue differently is not looking at the situation objectively.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by roar

I haven't seen a $20k projector in a long time...

Here is a $38k 1080p proj :
http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/content/lumis-3d-solo

But I am not following your logic here. Would you not have made the same argument that a $20k 480p projector would have made a DVD look better than a $20k 1080p projector for the same reasons?

Not exactly the same as there was also a transition from analog to digital projection which is a whole different story and had a lot of people advocating for one side or the other for some time (i.e. CRT vs digital).

But, in general:
1) For the first 5 years a tech is out you are paying a premium just for the new techs' research & development, not necessarily the quality or cost of the projector's parts.
2) At *best*, an upscaler can make a 480p DVD look the same quality at 1080p as it did at 480p. It cannot invent useful information that did not exist in the original DVD reliably. But, as we've seen with cheap upscalers usually the quality is worse than the original 480p encoded video - generally have to spend a chunk of change on an Oppo or standalone scaler just to not lose any quality in the scaling process.

Having not done the test myself I just can't imagine this to be true. What few reviews I've read of the true 4k Sony projector is that it does a great job up converting blu ray.

Try putting it up against a 1080p sim2 Nero 3D-2 (in same ballpark pricewise):
http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/content/nero-3d-2-2

...and it will be demolished

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by thelwig14

I agree with the analysis in regards to our eyes won't be able to tell a difference in anything below 120 inches. So that in itself pretty much eliminates most of the consumer market.

However, as someone who has access to a theater that uses 4k, the difference is very noticeable. Doesn't mean the usual 2k theater sucks, it is just a pretty big difference for me. And for anyone to argue differently is not looking at the situation objectively.

Yeah, theaters have screens many times the size of consumer screens, so the extra resolution can pay off there.

[srinivas1015]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Hi,
1080p upscaled to 4k is going to look worse than straight 1080p given the same quality display components - likely a bit softer in actuality; you can't reliably invent new detail that did not exist originally. The reason you'd need to upscale, though, with a 4k projector is due to the fixed resolution of digital projectors. This is why we need to upscale DVDs to 1080p for 1080p digital projectors.

In other words, if you spend $20,000 on a 4k projector and $20,000 on a 1080p projector to watch Blu-ray Discs, the 1080p projector will likely look significantly better.

I am not against 4k but I am not for it either. I don't see it as particularly useful for the home market, it appears more a marketing gimmick to sell TVs. For the record I have a 120" & 73" screens in my two home theaters and my preamps are 4k ready.

Not true as you'll no longer have the screen door effect with 4K.

[Flatnate]

I've seen 1080p blu-ray up-converted on the 4k Sony VPL-VW1000. It looks good, does it looks better up-converted to 4K than displayed in native 1080p. I'm not sure, maybe a little, but I wouldn't say it looked worse or any less sharp. Is it worth the massive price premium when you can't really feed it a lot of 4K content yet? Certainly not in my opinion.

Get me some 4K source content with a wider color gamut than Rec709 1080p and we will talk.

[roar]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Here is a $38k 1080p proj :
http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/content/lumis-3d-solo




Not exactly the same as there was also a transition from analog to digital projection which is a whole different story and had a lot of people advocating for one side or the other for some time (i.e. CRT vs digital).

But, in general:
1) For the first 5 years a tech is out you are paying a premium just for the new techs' research & development, not necessarily the quality or cost of the projector's parts.
2) At *best*, an upscaler can make a 480p DVD look the same quality at 1080p as it did at 480p. It cannot invent useful information that did not exist in the original DVD reliably. But, as we've seen with cheap upscalers usually the quality is worse than the original 480p encoded video - generally have to spend a chunk of change on an Oppo or standalone scaler just to not lose any quality in the scaling process.




Try putting it up against a 1080p sim2 Nero 3D-2 (in same ballpark pricewise):
http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/content/nero-3d-2-2

...and it will be demolished

Sorry... I am well aware there are plenty of $20k projectors out there, I meant I personally haven't seen one with my own eyes in some time so I cannot judge from first hand experience. Have you seen a shootout between the sim2 Nero and the Sony-VPL-VW1000ES yourself? Or are you just confident the sim will blow the Sony away?

[2pacalypsenow]

Originally Posted by Mansinthe

i have already a 108inch 16:9 screen. so i will probably upgrade in the future with upcoming 4k projectors that already have hdmi 2.0 might as well get a bigger screen if i movie to a bigger flat.

it will still look awesome with reality creation (sony) to watch my already good looking blurays in upscaled 4k

probably all people that are against 4k have only small TVs 60 inch and below (lol) or dont have the many to upgrade the hardware

i want to watch my favorite movies in the best possible quality. and a lot of these movies are classics mastered in 4k and more (criterion) or newer mainstream movies from labels like sony that look already pretty awesome in 1080p.

60" is a "Small" Tv now?

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by 2pacalypsenow

60" is a "Small" Tv now?

What, you didn't get the memo..?!

Yeah, kind of... when you start talking about when you can see the benefits of 4K.

[2pacalypsenow]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

What, you didn't get the memo..?!

Yeah, kind of... when you start talking about when you can see the benefits of 4K.

I agree but the small amount of True 4k content is so small there's really no point for now

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by 2pacalypsenow

I agree but the small amount of True 4k content is so small there's really no point for now

That's just it. I was watching a stream-cast of Home Theater Geeks where he interviews Don Shaw of Christie Digital and in a nutshell even the theaters are currently running mostly 2K DCP's.

I think Penton-Man (don't quote me here) has pointed out that even if a movie is shot in 4K, that doesn't necessarily mean they did a 4K digital intermediate and then 4K theatrical DCP for exhibition (Oblivion for example).

I'd love a sticky somewhere of things we know are (or going to be) exhibited in true 4K (ex. Skyfall, Samsara, Larence of Arabia restoration).

[blu-razor]

75 percent of cable and satellite providers their content is still in 480i and slowly catching up to the 1080i (not even 1080p at that) and I don't know about everybody else but
I spend more time watching regular TV then my movies... in my opinion the cost still out weighs the benefit. waste of money for early adopters. but hey if u got the $ aint my business what you do with it