Read WSR issue 113 ASAP - Blu-ray Forum

JTK · 09-17-2006, 02:17 PM

page 40, in depth interview with Don Eklund and Chris Walker from the BDA.

WSR didn't lob these guys a bunch of softball questions and basically the interview is about "Why did the BD launch suck, for all intents and purposes? Why did we see these amazing demoes and a final product that feel shockingly short? What are you going to do about it? etc. etc."

This interviews DESTROYS so many of the lies, stupidity, and FUD you see out there, especially on one or two very prominent and notorious forums, that it really had me LOL last night several times. It's that obvious.

I know I'm going to see WSR defamation threads going up from HD-DVD fanboys over this thing. I guarantee it.

Lots of pesky facts that won't be to their liking or advantage.

Now, since I'm a subscriber, I'm allowed to log into WSR's website and download PDF files of pretty much everything.

I have the PDF of this very interview ready to go right now. If you all can't get to this issue, I will happily email it to you. Everyone needs to read it and read it carefully.

Simply PM me your email address and I'll get it off to you straight away.

It's a hot potato.

zombie · 09-17-2006, 02:48 PM

Please email me a copy.

JTK · 09-17-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyg

Please email me a copy.

Sent.

BTBuck1 · 09-17-2006, 03:46 PM

Now dude...there is several people here that shouldn't even have to ask for you to send this (Myself included) come on man...get with the program

j/k

Red rover red rover send that article right over!

zombie · 09-17-2006, 03:59 PM

It is an interesting article but once again they blame Samsung for everything. Those of you that have seen The Fifth Element on BD know that the source material was seriously lacking. There's no way even the Pioneer Elite can polish that turd. It's a shame Sony can't admit their own faults yet are so quick to point out the faults of others. That said I did like hearing that Sony is open to using VC-1 and AVC and that they are firm believers in using lossless codecs on all of their discs.

JTK · 09-17-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyg

It is an interesting article but once again they blame Samsung for everything. Those of you that have seen The Fifth Element on BD know that the source material was seriously lacking. There's no way even the Pioneer Elite can polish that turd. It's a shame Sony can't admit their own faults yet are so quick to point out the faults of others. That said I did like hearing that Sony is open to using VC-1 and AVC and that they are firm believers in using lossless codecs on all of their discs.

I don't know. I felt like they were specific enough to not just blame Samsung for everything. The issue about NR came up, Samsung's going to fix it and they were like "Wow, after the fix it all looks about equal across the boards."

I didn't feel like I was seeing a Samsung bash fest by any means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian@BBY

Now dude...there is several people here that shouldn't even have to ask for you to send this (Myself included) come on man...get with the program

j/k

Red rover red rover send that article right over!

I need an email addy.

JTK · 09-17-2006, 04:54 PM

Rob Tomlin gave me permission to print this PM dialogue between us because there's some good points being made here and we want to see what the rest of you can make of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

I am very happy to see WSR give equal time on this issue (they again prove they are not biased imo).

However, these guys seem to be spinning as much as Joe Kane was in his interview!

Did you notice this very interesting tidbit admitted to by Don Eklund in that article? He says that the typical bitrate for the Blu-ray MPEG-2 encodes is only 18 mps! OUCH! That is less than OTA HD broadcasts, and well less than D-Theater! NOT GOOD, no matter how they try to spin it. They must get the bit rates higher, and they should still use VC-1 to be more efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

Or MPEG4. Now, help me understand something, but what happens to those bitrates if you're running 'em on BD50s?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

If they continue to use the same avg bitrate, the quality obviously remains the same whether it is on BD25, 50, or 2000. Theoretically when they get more space, they can raise the bit rates and improve quality.

But to have bitrates that don't even equal broadcast TV, much less D-Theater just isn't acceptable with MPEG2. No way do I believe that this hasn't had an impact on PQ.

Agreed 100 percent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

One thing I wish they would have asked is:

WHY stick with MPEG2? What did you have to prove with it? Why NOT go to one of the newer codecs and finish it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

In the article they say it is because it is a more "mature" codec (but they don't say what advantage that gives) and it is "faster" (which I don't understand).

I'm not sure about this, either.

Gang?

bferr1 · 09-18-2006, 01:02 AM

If some of the fault lies with the Samsung player, how is it that the later Sony discs are much improved and the Warner discs are said to look indistinguishable from their HD DVD counterparts?

zombie · 09-18-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bferr1

If some of the fault lies with the Samsung player, how is it that the later Sony discs are much improved and the Warner discs are said to look indistinguishable from their HD DVD counterparts?

Exactly! Suddenly the Sammy works fine even without the firmware upgrade? I don't think so. Sammy is Sony's punching bag.

ProvenFlipper · 09-18-2006, 02:41 AM

Well... OTA Broadcasts can be up to 19mbps, but very few are actually that high. Most are running at about half that, and that's why there is alot of macroblocking and such on OTA and cable signals.

As far as MPEG-2 being more mature and faster, Sony has MPEG-2 encoders that encode in real-time, AFAIK, MPEG-4 and VC-1 aren't real time. MPEG-2 has also been around longer so the engineers are more familiar with it.

I'm interested it in seeing the output of the Sony and Pioneer players, as they have a different chipset than the Sammy.

JTK · 09-18-2006, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyg

Exactly! Suddenly the Sammy works fine even without the firmware upgrade? I don't think so. Sammy is Sony's punching bag.

The player's faulty NR issues added to a problem that was already there to begin with poor discs.

I don't feel like the Samsung player is being singled out as THE only facet of BD's early shortcomings.

Faulty NR didn't help things out. It was the cherry on top of a sundae. That's all.

bferr1 · 09-18-2006, 03:26 AM

^ That's true, and Samsung's taking steps to acknowledge and correct the problems with their early players. Good for them, and us. The question is, what steps are Sony taking to acknowledge and correct the problems with their early discs?

zombie · 09-18-2006, 03:39 AM

I wouldn't go as far as to pretend the Samsung is perfect, just that it's not the biggest problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bferr1

The question is, what steps are Sony taking to acknowledge and correct the problems with their early discs?

You already know the answer to this. In a year or two they'll re-release them, properly done as Superbits or the like.

It's clear from the comments coming out about Tears Of The Sun that Sony has fixed whatever problem they were having so hopefully we won't see any more botched up discs coming out. Kevin says SWAT is quite nice as well.

bferr1 · 09-18-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyg

I wouldn't go as far as to pretend the Samsung is perfect, just that it's not the biggest problem.

Definitely not perfect, and I'm sure that the upcoming players will be better. But it's not the POS it's been made out to be, either.

Rob Tomlin · 09-18-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

The player's faulty NR issues added to a problem that was already there to begin with poor discs.

I don't feel like the Samsung player is being singled out as THE only facet of BD's early shortcomings.

Faulty NR didn't help things out. It was the cherry on top of a sundae. That's all.

Bingo!

Rob Tomlin · 09-18-2006, 04:00 AM

After reading the article some more, another thing popped out at me that I am not sure I realized before. None of these first gen BD players will be able to decode a lossless audio track:

Quote:

WSR Richelieu: Anybody that buys this first Samsung player or the first Pioneer player…
WSR Reber: ...or the first Sony player...
WSR Richelieu: ...will not have a way of hearing that lossless codec.

Eklund: As far as I know, that’s correct, Danny, but it’s not through any fault of the player manufacturers. The chipsets are simply not available.

Ouch!

Now, the A1 wasn't able to do this either, until the 2.0 firmware upgrade. But according to this comment by Eklund, if the "chipsets are not available", that would mean that this is not something that could be fixed via firmware later. At the prices for first gen BD players, that really sucks.

bferr1 · 09-18-2006, 04:06 AM

^ Hmm, Panasonic's not in that list.

Rob Tomlin · 09-18-2006, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bferr1

^ Hmm, Panasonic's not in that list.

They simply didn't specifically mention it. If "the chipsets simply are not available", it will apply to the Panasonic as well.

Ascended_Saiyan · 09-18-2006, 06:07 AM

[QUOTE=JTK;19039]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
In the article they say it is because it is a more "mature" codec (but they don't say what advantage that gives) and it is "faster" (which I don't understand).

I'm not sure about this, either.

Gang?

----------------
When you encode a movie, you have to decode it in the player. The smaller you make the movie, the more processing power it takes to put the movie back to the original size for viewing (just like a zip file). MPEG2 uses less compression which means it doesn't have to do a lot of processing to restore the full image. VC-1 may be more efficient for storing information, but it taxes the processor at the other end (the player). The more you take from one end, the more you have to put back on the other end. That's why it's faster. That's why the processor loads on the laptop during HD-DVD viewing are extremely high.

theknub · 09-18-2006, 06:13 AM

[QUOTE=Ascended_Saiyan;19171]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTK

When you encode a movie, you have to decode it in the player. The smaller you make the movie, the more processing power it takes to put the movie back to the original size for viewing (just like a zip file). MPEG2 uses less compression which means it doesn't have to do a lot of processing to restore the full image. VC-1 may be more efficient for storing information, but it taxes the processor at the other end (the player). The more you take from one end, the more you have to put back on the other end. That's why it's faster. That's why the processor loads on the laptop during HD-DVD viewing are extremely high.

well put and informative. i wish i could have come up with this myself.

09-17-2006, 02:17 PM	#1
JTK Blu-ray Knight Member since:Jan 2006 Location:www.blurayoasis.com	Read WSR issue 113 ASAP page 40, in depth interview with Don Eklund and Chris Walker from the BDA. WSR didn't lob these guys a bunch of softball questions and basically the interview is about "Why did the BD launch suck, for all intents and purposes? Why did we see these amazing demoes and a final product that feel shockingly short? What are you going to do about it? etc. etc." This interviews DESTROYS so many of the lies, stupidity, and FUD you see out there, especially on one or two very prominent and notorious forums, that it really had me LOL last night several times. It's that obvious. I know I'm going to see WSR defamation threads going up from HD-DVD fanboys over this thing. I guarantee it. Lots of pesky facts that won't be to their liking or advantage. Now, since I'm a subscriber, I'm allowed to log into WSR's website and download PDF files of pretty much everything. I have the PDF of this very interview ready to go right now. If you all can't get to this issue, I will happily email it to you. Everyone needs to read it and read it carefully. Simply PM me your email address and I'll get it off to you straight away. It's a hot potato.

Similar Threads
thread	Forum	Thread Starter	Replies	Last Post
World's Oldest Man Dies (age 113)	General Chat	Sussudio	21	07-20-2009 04:39 AM
Another GH3 issue... read this before you buy	PS3	Starkiller	1	10-29-2007 02:16 PM
113 Viewing	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	Spankey	1	09-04-2007 11:31 PM
Picture Glitch/digital Tiling - Anyone else have this Blu-Ray issue? please read	Blu-ray Players and Recorders	In10City	3	09-09-2006 10:30 PM
Read Widescreen Review issue 110 July 2006 ASAP	Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology	JTK	7	06-16-2006 11:35 PM

09-17-2006, 02:48 PM	#2
zombie Blu-ray Guru Top contributor Member since:May 2004 Trading Score:864	Please email me a copy.

09-17-2006, 03:46 PM	#4
BTBuck1 Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Jun 2006 Location:Oceanside, CA. Blu-ray collection:507 DVD collection:1	Now dude...there is several people here that shouldn't even have to ask for you to send this (Myself included) come on man...get with the program j/k Red rover red rover send that article right over!

09-17-2006, 03:59 PM	#5
zombie Blu-ray Guru Top contributor Member since:May 2004 Trading Score:864	It is an interesting article but once again they blame Samsung for everything. Those of you that have seen The Fifth Element on BD know that the source material was seriously lacking. There's no way even the Pioneer Elite can polish that turd. It's a shame Sony can't admit their own faults yet are so quick to point out the faults of others. That said I did like hearing that Sony is open to using VC-1 and AVC and that they are firm believers in using lossless codecs on all of their discs.

09-18-2006, 01:02 AM	#8
bferr1 Banned Member since:Sep 2006 Location:MA Trading Score:18	If some of the fault lies with the Samsung player, how is it that the later Sony discs are much improved and the Warner discs are said to look indistinguishable from their HD DVD counterparts?

09-18-2006, 02:41 AM	#10
ProvenFlipper Special Member Member since:Jun 2006 Home Theater Gallery:4 4K collection:335 Blu-ray collection:901 Trading Score:1	Well... OTA Broadcasts can be up to 19mbps, but very few are actually that high. Most are running at about half that, and that's why there is alot of macroblocking and such on OTA and cable signals. As far as MPEG-2 being more mature and faster, Sony has MPEG-2 encoders that encode in real-time, AFAIK, MPEG-4 and VC-1 aren't real time. MPEG-2 has also been around longer so the engineers are more familiar with it. I'm interested it in seeing the output of the Sony and Pioneer players, as they have a different chipset than the Sammy.

09-18-2006, 03:26 AM	#12
bferr1 Banned Member since:Sep 2006 Location:MA Trading Score:18	^ That's true, and Samsung's taking steps to acknowledge and correct the problems with their early players. Good for them, and us. The question is, what steps are Sony taking to acknowledge and correct the problems with their early discs?

09-18-2006, 04:06 AM	#17
bferr1 Banned Member since:Sep 2006 Location:MA Trading Score:18	^ Hmm, Panasonic's not in that list.

09-18-2006, 06:07 AM	#19
Ascended_Saiyan Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Atlanta, Georgia Blu-ray collection:608 Trading Score:1	[QUOTE=JTK;19039] Quote: Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin In the article they say it is because it is a more "mature" codec (but they don't say what advantage that gives) and it is "faster" (which I don't understand). I'm not sure about this, either. Gang? ---------------- When you encode a movie, you have to decode it in the player. The smaller you make the movie, the more processing power it takes to put the movie back to the original size for viewing (just like a zip file). MPEG2 uses less compression which means it doesn't have to do a lot of processing to restore the full image. VC-1 may be more efficient for storing information, but it taxes the processor at the other end (the player). The more you take from one end, the more you have to put back on the other end. That's why it's faster. That's why the processor loads on the laptop during HD-DVD viewing are extremely high.

Best Blu-ray Movie Deals