Best Surround Sound Remixing of Classic Movies

[ProjectB]

What do you consider to be movies (Pre-Digital Surround era) that are this?

[RockyIII]

Ben Hur

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[DangeRuss]

Originally Posted by ProjectB

What do you consider to be movies that are this?

What (in your eyes) classifies as a classic movie ?

[Dubstar]

Disney's 'Sleeping Beauty' - the 7.1 mixing really was an aural surprise.

[ChromeJob]

Originally Posted by DangeRuss

What (in your eyes) classifies as a classic movie ?

How about prior to the advent of Dolby Stereo? Say pre-1972? Or prior to ANY stereo or surround formats, pre-1950?

[ProjectB]

Originally Posted by ChromeJob

How about prior to the advent of Dolby Stereo? Say pre-1972? Or prior to ANY stereo or surround formats, pre-1950?

Pre-digital Soundtrack era.

[Ernest Rister]

Digital *recording* or digital *exhibition*? They're not the same thing. Fantasia was re-recorded in 1982 via digital means. The first film exhibited with digital sound was Batman Returns in 1992 via the Dolby Digital system.

[ProjectB]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Digital *recording* or digital *exhibition*? They're not the same thing. Fantasia was re-recorded in 1982 via digital means. The first film exhibited with digital sound was Batman Returns in 1992 via the Dolby Digital system.

Im talking about films before the era of digital exhibition 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, and now Dolby Atmos/DTS-X

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by ProjectB

Im talking about films before the era of digital exhibition 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, and now Dolby Atmos/DTS-X

So films before the summer of 1992. Gotcha.

I guess we could start a list. I'll start with TRON.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

So films before the summer of 1992. Gotcha.

I guess we could start a list. I'll start with TRON.

TRON wasn't a remix (although it had to be remixed a bit for DVD and Blu as all 70mm films do because 70mm films have five front channels and a mono surround channel). TRON was originally released in 70mm and released in both Dolby 6-track mag (Baby Boom) and 6-track mag discrete (the Todd-AO format) in 6 theaters. i saw it at the Loews State 2 in New York City in 6-track discrete and the sound was spectacular. In that era, directors were afraid of using surround for anything important because the quality of surround in the theaters was so variable (or nonexistent), but TRON had tons of very audible surround effects.

Another film in that era that sounded spectacular was Altered States (12/1980). Altered States was presented in 70mm and in some of those theaters, like the Village Theater in Westwood, Los Angeles and at the Loews Astor Plaza in NYC in Megasound, which was a mini-version of the Sensurround system used for Earthquake. At the Village Theater, Cerwin-Vega L36PE speakers were used for the subwoofer effects. I forget what was used at the Astor Plaza. That was also spectacular sound for the era. It sounds nothing like the original on Blu.

[ChromeJob]

There's a point in John Corgliano's score for Altered States during his final tank "dive" where the throbbing bass reduces one's ***** count. I heard it on the soundtrack album, and the only time I've heard it in the film was the first release. Yeah, that sound mix in the theater was awesome. His soundtrack's CD release was encoded in Dolby Surround, and the composer appreciated that as he wrote and recorded it wit the intention of it being played back in a multitrack environment.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

TRON wasn't a remix (although it had to be remixed a bit for DVD and Blu as all 70mm films do because 70mm films have five front channels and a mono surround channel). TRON was originally released in 70mm and released in both Dolby 6-track mag (Baby Boom) and 6-track mag discrete (the Todd-AO format) in 6 theaters. i saw it at the Loews State 2 in New York City in 6-track discrete and the sound was spectacular. In that era, directors were afraid of using surround for anything important because the quality of surround in the theaters was so variable (or nonexistent), but TRON had tons of very audible surround effects.

Another film in that era that sounded spectacular was Altered States (12/1980). Altered States was presented in 70mm and in some of those theaters, like the Village Theater in Westwood, Los Angeles and at the Loews Astor Plaza in NYC in Megasound, which was a mini-version of the Sensurround system used for Earthquake. At the Village Theater, Cerwin-Vega L36PE speakers were used for the subwoofer effects. I forget what was used at the Astor Plaza. That was also spectacular sound for the era. It sounds nothing like the original on Blu.

I gotcha.

[Dubstar]

Altered States, Wolfen and Outland were 'Megasound' mixes, and Warner's really did good job encoding the blurays with said audio

[Dubstar]

I do have to call MGM out for not allowing the 6-track sound mix for 'Khartoum' being implemented on the Twilight Time bluray edition, stating that the sound mix didn't exist to use was a bold face lie, since the recent remastered 70mm prints had new DTS (five front, mono surrounds) discs accompany the 65mm film prints.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

I do have to call MGM out for not allowing the 6-track sound mix for 'Khartoum' being implemented on the Twilight Time bluray edition, stating that the sound mix didn't exist to use was a bold face lie, since the recent remastered 70mm prints had new DTS (five front, mono surrounds) discs accompany the 65mm film prints.

I saw that 70mm print at the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, NY last year. It didn't sound great. My impression is that it might have been only 4-track (LCRS), which actually was fairly common - some studios didn't want to pay for a 6-track mix and they just used the 35mm 4-track mag mix for the 6-track, sometimes spreading Left and Center to the Left Center speaker and Center and Right to the Right Center speaker. That was the reason Dolby turned those two channels (2 and 5) to Baby Boom channels beginning with Star Wars in 1977.

"Lord Jim" was only 3-track. Most people don't realize this, but "2001: A Space Odyssey" was only 4-track until the psychedelic sequence at the end, according to Robert A. Harris.

"West Side Story" didn't use the 70mm mix either. The mix on the Blu-ray is totally different than the original 70mm mix.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I saw that 70mm print at the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, NY last year. It didn't sound great. My impression is that it might have been only 4-track (LCRS), which actually was fairly common - some studios didn't want to pay for a 6-track mix and they just used the 35mm 4-track mag mix for the 6-track, sometimes spreading Left and Center to the Left Center speaker and Center and Right to the Right Center speaker. That was the reason Dolby turned those two channels (2 and 5) to Baby Boom channels beginning with Star Wars in 1977.

"Lord Jim" was only 3-track. Most people don't realize this, but "2001: A Space Odyssey" was only 4-track until the psychedelic sequence at the end, according to Robert A. Harris.

"West Side Story" didn't use the 70mm mix either. The mix on the Blu-ray is totally different than the original 70mm mix.

but even if the original mix is 4-track, a 6-track mix for the 70mm print is still a 'remix' - regardless, the AFI Silver's 70mm presentation of 'Khartoum' the frontal sound, sounded just as wide as the image itself (the delineation and placement of sound cues, noticeably in the music cues was vivid and used the five speakers behind the screen to it's advantage).

Well of course, the bluray of West Side Story won't sound like the 70mm prints. The restoration for the 70mm prints in 2009 worked with the original five stage T0DD-AO sound mix, which isn't entirely replicable in one's home theater setup. Personally I find the 7.1 mixes of 'West Side Story' and 'Sound of Music' to be too bombastic. I read Robert Wise wasn't too keen on surround sound, hence why both aforementioned movies were supposed to be front heavy in terms of orchestral and singing sound design. 'Sound of Music's bluray mixing actually does a decent job with replicating the left/center, right/center dialog panning and placement. On a somewhat similar note, I read that Fox actually mixed 'Oklahoma!' in Dolby Atmos to effectively recreate the original TODD-AO mix so the five front mix is more prominent.

I assume you saw 'Lord Jim' what did you think? I thought the Sony/Columbia 70mm print 'looked' fantastic!

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

but even if the original mix is 4-track, a 6-track mix for the 70mm print is still a 'remix' - regardless, the AFI Silver's 70mm presentation of 'Khartoum' the frontal sound, sounded just as wide as the image itself (the delineation and placement of sound cues, noticeably in the music cues was vivid and used the five speakers behind the screen to it's advantage).

Well of course, the bluray of West Side Story won't sound like the 70mm prints. The restoration for the 70mm prints in 2009 worked with the original five stage T0DD-AO sound mix, which isn't entirely replicable in one's home theater setup. Personally I find the 7.1 mixes of 'West Side Story' and 'Sound of Music' to be too bombastic. I read Robert Wise wasn't too keen on surround sound, hence why both aforementioned movies were supposed to be front heavy in terms of orchestral and singing sound design. 'Sound of Music's bluray mixing actually does a decent job with replicating the left/center, right/center dialog panning and placement. On a somewhat similar note, I read that Fox actually mixed 'Oklahoma!' in Dolby Atmos to effectively recreate the original TODD-AO mix so the five front mix is more prominent.

I assume you saw 'Lord Jim' what did you think? I thought the Sony/Columbia 70mm print 'looked' fantastic!

I realize that 70mm is 5 front + surround and home systems are 3 front + side and optionally rear surround + subwoofer. I write about that all the time when people complain it's not the original mix, especially in regards to Star Wars. I usually ask people whether they'd accept mono surround and of course they wouldn't.

But what I'm talking about in West Side Story are things like at the very beginning, at the end of the overture when you hear the whistle of the Jets, the first two notes came from the left and the second two notes came from the right. Doesn't happen that way on the Blu-ray. And the track doesn't seem to have the refinement that the original 70mm presentation had, although when I saw WWS in the theater, I probably still had hearing out to at least 20KHz and I certainly don't have that now.

I'm surprised you say that there wasn't much surround in the original 70mm because I saw it at the Rivoli in NYC in 70mm and was so impressed with the sound, including the surrounds, albeit mono, that it's one of the reasons I became a recording engineer. West Side Story, How The West Was Won, Close Encounters, Raiders, Apocalypse Now and a few others all had amazingly superb audio that blew me away in their original presentations. (In fact, when I saw Star Wars in 70mm at the Loews Astor Plaza which I saw after I saw Close Encounters at the Ziegfeld, even though SW was released first, I wasn't impressed with the sound because CE was so much better.)

After seeing West Side Story, I bought the soundtrack album and I would force my friends to sit with their heads between my stereo speakers in order to try and replicate what it sounded like in the theater, but of course I could never replicate the 6-track sound, which I found immensely frustrating. And they were never impressed anyway, which made me think they were idiots.

I never saw "Lord Jim" when it was originally released. I saw it a few years ago at the Walter Reade in NYC. I thought "Lord Jim" looked okay for its age, but if it were a recent film, I would have though it looked like crap. And the sound was kind of thin at the Walter Reade, but I don't think their sound system puts out much low end, which also seems to be a problem at MOMI. The other problem at the Walter Reade, even though the "big" theater there is 268 seats, is that the screen is really not large enough for 70mm presentations. A 70mm presentation needs to overwhelm the viewer, IMO.

And maybe I've just gotten too used to the pristine images of a digital Dolby Vision DCP, in spite of the disadvantages of digital. Or maybe I've become too much of a pessimist. Except for a few indoor shots that were closeups and revealed incredible skin tones, I didn't think the 70mm version of "The Hateful Eight" actually looked as great as people made out. I didn't like the film enough to also see it digitally, but I do wonder if the digital version didn't actually look better. There was some dirt on the 70mm print, even though I know the projectionist put every effort into giving the very best presentation (he commented often online).

[UFAlien]

I was quite impressed by the 5.1 remix on Psycho from the original mono soundtrack.

[Rory]

I appreciate when an older mono film gets a stereo/surround remix on video -- if it's done well. Purists hate them, but I'd rather watch something like THE WIZARD OF OZ or THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, and more modern stuff like BULLITT and DIRTY HARRY in stereo.

[ProjectB]

Akira’s Japanese 192khz 24bit 5.1 remaster on Blu Ray is one of the most immerssive tracks on Blu Ray yet (the original soundtrack was 4:2:4 or Dolby Stereo)