Avatar 2: Way of Water SPOILER Thread

[Zivouhr]

Post your thoughts without worrying about spoilers or spoiler tags for Avatar 2.


SPOILERS:

I liked Avatar 1, and thought Avatar 2 was a decent follow up that focused more on the family of Jake Sully than Jake and Neytiri, as they're being pursued by the evil Na'vi Avatar clones. Great action scenes and interesting conflict when Jake brought the war to the Water Na'vi. Nice going, Jake....... The 3D was strong and exceptional throughout most of the film, more consistent than the first film.

One thing the very ending of Avatar 2 did answer, is what happened to Jake's human body in Avatar 1 as he was being converted into a Na'vi Avatar body. In Avatar 2, at the end, it shows the one deceased character being absorbed in the cilia tentacles of Pandora. Which can easily be connected to what likely happened to Jake's human body. That was nicely done and I was glad they covered it in some capacity.

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This film focuses mostly on the smaller family story, ignoring other concerns generated from the first film. The first film was self-contained, but this film is not, and will rely on part 3 for a complete story. Sort of how Matrix 1 was complete, tying up most loose story threads, and then part 2 relied on part 3 to complete the saga.


Since Avatar 2 focused mainly on the experience of the Sully Kids deal with learning how to swim and get along with the Water Na'vi, Whales and dealing with the trouble-maker after their father:

Avatar 3 will hopefully begin to address the following questions left wide open by Avatar 2:

Unobtainium in some capacity and why it was ignored in Avatar 2? I mention they don't show what's done with the whale brain fluid beyond "it's anti-aging and makes us rich", but in Avatar 1, they don't show what is done with Unobtainium much either. Giovanni Ribisi's leader role did help solidify the idea of it though, being so important they were willing to destroy the tree of life for it. Just plow through it. That was nicely done in Avatar 1 for villain motivation.

Avatar 2 could be an early moment in the overall film saga, but if Earth is dying, why not send a bigger force to take over Pandora right away to begin the Earth conversion process of Pandora? Turning the toxic, deadly Pandora air into a breathable mix of nitrogen, oxygen and argon for humans, at the cost of most living things on Pandora (which would be the mostly evil humans' style)? Or at least have some scientists acknowledge some of that to prepare us for part 3 if it's more involved. Foreshadowing to connect the separate stories better. I hope we see the dying, polluted Earth in part 3, unless Cameron is saving that for the end film.

Are we going to see examples of old human characters to care about needing the anti-aging syrum from the whales? If not, how much weight does that motivation actually hold beyond "we can make a lot of money". Money to do what with? Round these villains out more please. Unless money and revenge is mostly all they really care about as suggested by Avatar 2.

Jake was busy raising his family, but not busy enough planning ahead for them by preparing for the potential return of the humans, at the cost of his family being captured and tortured a couple times, one son dying, and the Water Na'vi, who should have created a separate area so Jake could deal with the humans on his own. Jake brought the war to them.

[danman227460]

Here are some of my theories.

If the timeline is correct, it took them over 10 years to return to Pandora. Due to this length of time, we can assume it wouldn't be feasible to send a huge force on a 10 year journey.

Maybe they are still mining unobtainium for local manufacturing but they can't export it back to Earth to sell in large enough quantities. The large deposit could still be under Na'vi control.

This is where amrita comes in. It can be pretty much obtained without much fight from the Na-vi and much easier to transport back to Earth.

[BluBonnet]

All of those things are just story devices.

JC thinks of the kind of movie he wants -- the battles and the conflicts and set pieces he wants. Then he tries to come up with some vague excuse to explain why they would be happening in the first place. Those excuses aren't always convincing, of course.

Most moviegoers don't seem to mind.

[Zivouhr]

Originally Posted by danman227460

Here are some of my theories.

If the timeline is correct, it took them over 10 years to return to Pandora. Due to this length of time, we can assume it wouldn't be feasible to send a huge force on a 10 year journey.

Maybe they are still mining unobtainium for local manufacturing but they can't export it back to Earth to sell in large enough quantities. The large deposit could still be under Na'vi control.

This is where amrita comes in. It can be pretty much obtained without much fight from the Na-vi and much easier to transport back to Earth.

10 years, that would be a long time.
I wonder what unobtainium was used for again, as Avatar 1 mostly gave it financial value, but no solid examples of what else to show its significance.

For the Whale brain fluid, I was hoping for some examples of maybe the Whale Hunter, if he had a father or mother he really valued, him trying to save her at any cost by killing the whales for anti-aging brain fluid to keep them alive longer, so he could allow them to enjoy life more at the cost of the whales. It would give the indifferent, selfish villain more depth to why he wants these whales so much beyond making money. Maybe have a scene that lasts 1 minute before the attack begins, showing him sitting with his dying father, saying "I'm going to save you, I promise. I'll get that whale brain fluid and save you."

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

All of those things are just story devices.

JC thinks of the kind of movie he wants -- the battles and the conflicts and set pieces he wants. Then he tries to come up with some vague excuse to explain why they would be happening in the first place. Those excuses aren't always convincing, of course.

Most moviegoers don't seem to mind.

Thanks. You may be right, considering the superficial coverage by Cameron's stories of Unobtainium for example. Cameron's initial goal, have the humans attack. Then he thinks of a reason, for minerals.
But he doesn't focus much on the reasoning for the attack, placing more importance on the attack itself, with Unobtainium being overlooked in the sequel, replaced by something new, which was also not covered in depth more than a vial and brief verbal description of anti-aging. To see someone surviving and saved from death by this brain fluid could've added more meaning to the story motivations.

It makes it seem unimportant to the story when it has no consequence to anyone if they obtain it or not, other than "more money" for the human villains. Otherwise, we can have villains in any movie who are destroying people and stuff for the reason of "To make more money", or "For revenge" and that would be the depth of how far the story goes. A lot of action movies do that though to keep things simplified.

I guess it can be similar to how Robot AI just wants to destroy and take over humankind, because it can in the Terminator films. They attack to wipe out humans, who they see as obsolete obstacles. No more reason needed than that for the robots. Which reminds me of The Matrix, where the Machines feel superior to humans.

On the other hand, Ultron from Avengers 2, gave more depth to his reasoning for wanting to destroy humans, although in the end, his method of doing it was not too smart and took a ton of effort for supposedly the smartest AI on the planet.

[Gieferg]

I have one serious problem with the plot of this movie.

In general, the most misguided turn of events for me is the one on which the whole plot is based - suddenly (just after he messed up Quaritch's team) Sully decides to leave his people and get away with his family.

It could have been played in such a way that Sully would screw something up by defending his family at the expense of other Na'vi and they would exile him or indirectly convince him to leave. He should be FORCED to make this decision, and he doesn't feel it at all, whichever way you look at it, it looks like an unmotivated and illogical move that should have serious and negative consequences that Jake doesn't seem to think about at all.

As a matter of fact, Sully should have sent Neytiri and the kids to safe place to rule out the possibility of someone using them as hostages to get to him, and he should stay behind and continue the guerrilla war. Difficult decision, but probably the best one that could be made in this situation. Then you could steer the action so that Quaritch would somehow find out where they were (you could dial some whaler thing here, for example - one of the kids would fall into their hands) and only then Jake rushes to help the family (and then leaving the omaticaya tribe would be motivated and understandable).

In general, there are a few things that you have to turn a blind eye to quite a bit, but the whole thing looks good enough that you can easily do it.

[weberrygt]

I thought that Neytiri would have put up a larger fight about leaving. The Na'vi are her people. Sully was not always Na'vi, so for me it was an easier choice for him to leave. Neytiri does not strike me as somebody who willingly gives in. There could have been more conflict.

Edit: are they all Na'vi, the tree Na'vi and the water Na'vi? Maybe I should say - the tree Na'vi.

[Zivouhr]

Okay, for the whales, the researcher and the Water Na'vi say that the whales have their own language, mathematics, art, singing, and so on, and are much smarter than humans. I don't doubt that whales can think and have great emotions, but do they need math when swimming and without hands to mark math on paper or rock walls?


I can understand singing among whales, but Mathematics? What point would that become practical for a whale, swimming through the ocean? Whales are great, though I don't know if mathematics, algebra, and complex science is going to do them much use. That almost seems like humans projecting their studies onto the whales. Maybe the whales don't need those things to make the most of life?

It's an interesting subject IMO, because James Cameron suggests it, but then doesn't show any evidence in the film of the Whales using Math or art.

I'm just trying to understand his point about mathematics and whales. The flashbacks suggest memory and language, but math I didn't see.

[Lee A Stewart]

Math may help with their migration patterns. That's what we use to determine them.

[Janjira54]

Originally Posted by Zivouhr

Okay, for the whales, the researcher and the Water Na'vi say that the whales have their own language, mathematics, art, singing, and so on, and are much smarter than humans. I don't doubt that whales can think and have great emotions, but do they need math when swimming and without hands to mark math on paper or rock walls?


I can understand singing among whales, but Mathematics? What point would that become practical for a whale, swimming through the ocean? Whales are great, though I don't know if mathematics, algebra, and complex science is going to do them much use. That almost seems like humans projecting their studies onto the whales. Maybe the whales don't need those things to make the most of life?

It's an interesting subject IMO, because James Cameron suggests it, but then doesn't show any evidence in the film of the Whales using Math or art.

I'm just trying to understand his point about mathematics and whales. The flashbacks suggest memory and language, but math I didn't see.

I love how you get hung up on the smallest things. Always amazing.

[Zivouhr]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Math may help with their migration patterns. That's what we use to determine them.

Interesting. You may be right about that, when the whales were in a pack, counting would quickly help identify who might be missing.

Originally Posted by Janjira54

I love how you get hung up on the smallest things. Always amazing.

Thanks! It's fun to think about.

[Lee A Stewart]

Look at the distances they travel. How do they do this?

Enthusiasts have known for decades that whales use noises to communicate. Whales are divided into two groups, and each uses sound differently. Toothed whales, like orcas and dolphins (which are in the whale family), use a form of sonar called echolocation, making clicks and pops that reflect back to them, telling them the locations of things around them. Baleen whales use low-frequency calls that have the same effect but can travel long distances. Until recently, scientists believed that baleen whales didn't use sonar to navigate, but new research is revealing that they most likely do.

[Roonan]

Mediocre film. I was never a big fan of the first one, but it was okay and I could at least appreciate and respect the wordbuilding and tech, despite the cartoony characterizations and preachy "themes". Unfortunately, those things and everything that was unbearable and ludicrous about the first one, James (activist) Cameron chose to turn it all up to eleven in this sequel. The only thing remotely interesting and entertaining was the family dynamic.