I'm so glad Blu-ray won and not HD-DVD

[Cambrian]

another release from Universal with Dolby Digital Plus.
It seems to me the HD-DVD camp were guilty of omitting lossless sound in many of their releases. They just don't get it! It's either a size limitation of HD-DVD or they were just being lazy.

With high quality speakers, I can definitely tell a difference between lossy and lossless sound even when that lossy sound is DD+.

One thing is for sure: if HD-DVD had won, we would have seen a lot of releases with lossy sound.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1376/atonement.html

[Zaphod]

I usually don't bring religion into my discussions but...

[Lord_Stewie]

it took you a while to post this. yeah i agree with you. lossy sound and HDDVD isn't what the Hi Def experiance is about.

[blueblood]

I feel the same way, Blu truly is the future

[clownface]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I usually don't bring religion into my discussions but...

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[skrill]

I would take a well-mastered, well-engineered audio track in lossy format over a dull track in lossless.

Lossless is not some holy grail. If the master audio track is garbage -- then the result will be garbage (without some extra studio time in a sound engineering booth).

I was just watching Mission Impossible III on HD-DVD (got it from my local blockbuster for $8), and I was amazed by the sound design. The imaging, the LFE, the dialog, all excellent. And it is in DD+ (1.5mbs encode -- btw the blu ray version of MI:3 was in regular DD 640kbs encode -- but all reviews say that it is also an excellent track), if it was in lossless would it have sounded better -- maybe/maybe not. But it sounds fanatastic as is. This is do to hard work and excellent engineering by the audio specialists at the studio.

Now - compare to Full Metal Jacket (Deluxe reissue) on blu -- that has an uncompressed PCM and it sounds like crap. It's lossless, but the track is entirely front heavy, very little imaging and poor use of LFE.

Lossless is fantastic and I always select the highest resolution track available on any disc -- but lossless is not a replacement for good sound engineering, mixing and design. Effort and engineering = a good track. Not which codec is used.

This is not a red v. blu debate -- just saying that a lossy track can sound stupendous. And a lossless track (with lazy engineers) will sound just like a regular crummy DVD.

That said -- I too am glad that Blu won -- now we can move past the format war and get some good catalog releases (LOTR, Starwars, etc.).

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by skrill

Lossless is fantastic and I always select the highest resolution track available on any disc -- but lossless is not a replacement for good sound engineering, mixing and design. Effort and engineering = a good track. Not which codec is used.

well hopefully, there will always be the option for a lossless track on every blu-ray in the near future. It's sad to think that a great lossy track is better than a poor lossless track, but you may be right. I think the point is that lossless is capable of being much better than lossy. I would rather take my chances on lossless, then trust the engineers did an outstanding job on a lossy track.

[skrill]

Originally Posted by savage1984

well hopefully, there will always be the option for a lossless track on every blu-ray in the near future. It's sad to think that a great lossy track is better than a poor lossless track, but you may be right. I think the point is that lossless is capable of being much better than lossy. I would rather take my chances on lossless, then trust the engineers did an outstanding job on a lossy track.

I always like to check the reviews of any disc. The audio nerds at HDD are pretty good about highlighting good tracks. If the engineers had put time into the FMJ sound track -- I am confident that it would have sounds great. But that takes time and costs money. It still boggles my mind that they spent neither -- they take the time to reissue the movie after the first BluRay/HD FMJ disc issued sucked (and was widely panned) -- and then only put out a marginally better product.

[HeavyHitter]

HD DVD = too many compromises.

Yes, be thankful Blu-ray won.

[darkpoet25]

Originally Posted by skrill

I always like to check the reviews of any disc. The audio nerds at HDD are pretty good about highlighting good tracks. If the engineers had put time into the FMJ sound track -- I am confident that it would have sounds great. But that takes time and costs money. It still boggles my mind that they spent neither -- they take the time to reissue the movie after the first BluRay/HD FMJ disc issued sucked (and was widely panned) -- and then only put out a marginally better product.

It can also be a partial blame on the studio's as well. I've noticed that with many Warner titles they only have an SD Dolby Digital soundtrack, yet most of the other Blu Ray studios like Sony, Disney and Fox all have uncompressed lossless audio codecs. All of which sound amazing. Now that Warner is going Blu Ray exclusive they need to step it up and put a worthwhile lossless audio codec on their future releases, as well as put the right video codec as well(i.e. Terminator 3-Rise Of The Machines). By the way I do agree with you on the engineer statement in your earlier post. The only solution I can think of is to better train their audio engineering staff to bring lossless audio to life on their Blu Ray titles.

[Blaumann]

Imo the weirdest thing about this is, that many HD DVD had more than enough space left to include a TrueHD track. Of course it could be speculated, that the bandwidth ceiling would be the limiting factor. But i am glad we don't have to worry about these things any more.

The way is see i through my purple glasses, i have lost region free and i have gained the bandwidth. And since i am certain solutions for region coding are coming, in fact i haven't lost anything.

Here's to hoping, that Uni/Para will start releasing new titles soon, all taking advantage of Blu-rays potential.

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by darkpoet25

Now that Warner is going Blu Ray exclusive they need to step it up and put a worthwhile lossless audio codec on their future releases...

I could not have said it better myself. I only want to add that we KNOW YOU CAN DO IT WARNER. You did a TERRIFIC job on Blade Runner. We want LPCM, at least, on every release. Hi Def counts for Video AND Audio.

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by skrill

I would take a well-mastered, well-engineered audio track in lossy format over a dull track in lossless.

Lossless is not some holy grail. If the master audio track is garbage -- then the result will be garbage (without some extra studio time in a sound engineering booth).

I was just watching Mission Impossible III on HD-DVD (got it from my local blockbuster for $8), and I was amazed by the sound design. The imaging, the LFE, the dialog, all excellent. And it is in DD+ (1.5mbs encode -- btw the blu ray version of MI:3 was in regular DD 640kbs encode -- but all reviews say that it is also an excellent track), if it was in lossless would it have sounded better -- maybe/maybe not. But it sounds fanatastic as is. This is do to hard work and excellent engineering by the audio specialists at the studio.

Now - compare to Full Metal Jacket (Deluxe reissue) on blu -- that has an uncompressed PCM and it sounds like crap. It's lossless, but the track is entirely front heavy, very little imaging and poor use of LFE.

Lossless is fantastic and I always select the highest resolution track available on any disc -- but lossless is not a replacement for good sound engineering, mixing and design. Effort and engineering = a good track. Not which codec is used.

This is not a red v. blu debate -- just saying that a lossy track can sound stupendous. And a lossless track (with lazy engineers) will sound just like a regular crummy DVD.

That said -- I too am glad that Blu won -- now we can move past the format war and get some good catalog releases (LOTR, Starwars, etc.).

While I agree with most of what you said, you're still missing the point. A great Lossless track beats a great lossy track. And thats what we all want.

Do I expect every single lossless track to sound perfect? No. But using lossy just seems like it artificially cripples the soundtrack. Lossy can still sound very good, but I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone that says a good lossy track wouldnt sound better in lossless. Why use lossy when lossless is fully supported?

[ryoohki]

Originally Posted by skrill

I would take a well-mastered, well-engineered audio track in lossy format over a dull track in lossless.

Lossless is not some holy grail. If the master audio track is garbage -- then the result will be garbage (without some extra studio time in a sound engineering booth).

I was just watching Mission Impossible III on HD-DVD (got it from my local blockbuster for $8), and I was amazed by the sound design. The imaging, the LFE, the dialog, all excellent. And it is in DD+ (1.5mbs encode -- btw the blu ray version of MI:3 was in regular DD 640kbs encode -- but all reviews say that it is also an excellent track), if it was in lossless would it have sounded better -- maybe/maybe not. But it sounds fanatastic as is. This is do to hard work and excellent engineering by the audio specialists at the studio.

Now - compare to Full Metal Jacket (Deluxe reissue) on blu -- that has an uncompressed PCM and it sounds like crap. It's lossless, but the track is entirely front heavy, very little imaging and poor use of LFE.

Lossless is fantastic and I always select the highest resolution track available on any disc -- but lossless is not a replacement for good sound engineering, mixing and design. Effort and engineering = a good track. Not which codec is used.

This is not a red v. blu debate -- just saying that a lossy track can sound stupendous. And a lossless track (with lazy engineers) will sound just like a regular crummy DVD.

That said -- I too am glad that Blu won -- now we can move past the format war and get some good catalog releases (LOTR, Starwars, etc.).

Well yeah of course, but please don't tell my that Bourne, King Kong, Transformer and other high class newer release on HD DVD have enought of a DD+ track. The good enought was ok on HD DVD, but this is Blu-ray and people expect the best... Personnally i won't buy a release without it. Unless it's a Nature show witch in my mind don't require it..

I mean even Halloween have a difference between the PCM vs DD. Altought it's not that big, still there and it's all i'am asking

[skrill]

Originally Posted by ryoohki

I mean even Halloween have a difference between the PCM vs DD. Altought it's not that big, still there and it's all i'am asking

Be careful when comparing PCM v. DD on discs to norm for db changes. Often the lossless PCM or TrueHD track is louder (encoded at a higher db reference level) which can be perceived as clarity.

I agree that lossless is generally best -- but it will not replace great sound engineering.

And yes -- Transformers, Bourne (Identity and Supremacy) and King Kong all sound fantastic.

Bourne Ultimatum is TrueHD (and also sounds fantastic).

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by skrill

And yes -- Transformers, Bourne (Identity and Supremacy) and King Kong all sound fantastic.

Exactly, and won't they sound even better once they have Lossless sound. [a resounding YES]

[ryoohki]

Originally Posted by skrill

Be careful when comparing PCM v. DD on discs to norm for db changes. Often the lossless PCM or TrueHD track is louder (encoded at a higher db reference level) which can be perceived as clarity.

I agree that lossless is generally best -- but it will not replace great sound engineering.

And yes -- Transformers, Bourne (Identity and Supremacy) and King Kong all sound fantastic.

Bourne Ultimatum is TrueHD (and also sounds fantastic).

Yeah well i'am all aware of this.. PCM is generaly 4DB louder... my system total about 6000$ with 5 Speakers and the Receiver so it's not Super Hardcore but it's most then 90% of people i know..

For example i had a PS3 before, and use the DTS track on Shootem up... once i got my BD30k and use Bitstream DTS HD MA.. i mean i was blowned away.. The Loseless track is so much better.

DD and DTS Lossy sound like a very good MP3. But there's always a difference between a MP3 and a Red Book CD Audio.

Of course mixing is the base, just like Video Mastering is the base of Video, if the video is mixed with a soft effect, it will always look like that.

But from an equally mixed Track , PCM/TrueHD/DTS HD MA will always sound better...

[skrill]

Originally Posted by ryoohki

But from an equally mixed Track , PCM/TrueHD/DTS HD MA will always sound better...

100% agree -- I just hope we get better consistency on future releases as to the first part of your statement.

[skrill]

Originally Posted by savage1984

Exactly, and won't they sound even better once they have Lossless sound. [a resounding YES]

We'll see -- but I doubt they will be enough better to warrant a repurchase. I don't doubt that there will be some qualitative improvements (but they may ultimately be minor).

[unreal1080p]

Originally Posted by skrill

We'll see -- but I doubt they will be enough better to warrant a repurchase. I don't doubt that there will be some qualitative improvements (but they may ultimately be minor).

Captain "Good Enough" has spoken

P.S. Your roomate, Captain Obvious called... he says you forgot your cape at home this morning: