Blu-Ray mastering/authoring

[MrPowers]

I read a few other threads dealing with authoring blu-ray, but the threads and the information they contained were all from '06 and '07.

We produce our own media on DVDs currently, and are looking into offering Blu-Ray now. We've been using Vegas, Scenarist, some automation scripts and a few DVD duplicator towers to handle our DVD needs for some time.

However, we do not wish to spend the $30+grand for either Scenarist Blu-Ray or Blu-Print, and the thousands more on getting Blu-Ray duplicators, as we do not have the demand for the product to justify the cost. We would only need to make a handful of customized discs here and there in-house. We could outsource any bulk orders.

But, my question is this: is there now any reliable authoring programs on a consumer or prosumer level (i.e. that cost under or around a grand) that can handle making Master discs? If so, which ones? Keep in mind we are using Vegas 8 to handle editing and rendering of the files. But, we have other options available too.

[McBain]

Shipping in mid-June, DVD Architect 5 software will be available as a free downloadable upgrade to all registered Vegas Pro 8 users, as the Vegas Pro software ships bundled with the DVD Architect application.

Source: http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/R...rticleID=13645

[Lucy Diamond]

Welcome to the family by the way ;o >

[MrPowers]

Appreciated, but a lot of authoring programs list 'blu-ray support' in their features. That doesn't confirm the answer I was looking for. Also, while I'm sure Sony would be the expert on their own format, we also don't want to wait till June to get started if there is another option available.

Ulead, Roxio, Cyberlink, etc.. have all had programs that supposedly support Blu-Ray for some time, but just like in these threads: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=13873
"We used Roxio DVDit HD for bluray authoring and it did a good job making a playable BD-r. We used there mastering output and sent the file to the Sony bluray plant and it made it through the glass master test disc with no errors but the test disc won't play. They sent the test disc to the experts in Japan and they couldn't find the problem. I searching now for a small company or indiviual who has a high end bluray authoring software like Scenarist that would like to author our 4 HD programs at a reasonable price."

and https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2235

We need to know that we can make a Master that we can then send to someone for duplicating in bulk. Most of the information in those threads is old, so I'm wondering what the current situation is. Has Roxio fixed the problems? If so, are there better options?

Also, we're not making overly complicated menus either. We've had Scenarist for our DVDs since long before I worked here, but we hardly use a fraction of the power of that program for our needs. The explanation given to me is that it was the only option at the time that we first set up that process. Like I said before, a prosumer, or potentially even a consumer level program, would be sufficient to handle the level of complexity of the menus we put on our stuff. But, I just need to clarify if we'll run into any issues when we actually output it to a blu-ray disc. I'll look pretty bad if we spent thousands of dollars and it doesn't work. I'd look equally as bad if we end up buying 2 or 3 cheap programs only to find out we needed a more expensive one.

Lastly, thanks for the warm welcome

[McBain]

The Vegas solution looks like it might do recordable work for no cost.

For replication, you might want to look at: http://dostudio.netblender.com/dsa_quicklook.asp

[MrPowers]

So, had issues with posting for awhile. Had tried to post a reply multiple times, but I guess I had some restrictions on my account from being a new member.

Looks like it's resolve now, though.

I've found out some more info since I posted, and since I originally wrote that response (says it was posted 4-18, but it didn't go up until 2 days ago).

Basically, we're in that 'not well supported' zone of medium size producers. I.e. we don't necessarily care about AACS encryption, we generally only make a few hundred or thousand discs for a title, but we want our stuff to play on all set top Blu-Ray players.

Basically, is there no way to make a disc that will play on all, or the majority at least, of set top Blu-Ray players without paying the AACS fees of $3,000 and then $1,600 per title?

If so, how, and what is required?

[McBain]

All replicated BD video discs MUST incorporate AACS and, as you say, recordable compatibility is spotty. That's the way it is.

[ryoohki]

Well the easiest way to do a blu-ray and not have to test it a lot is not to use JAVA.. you can do menu, overlay, etc.. wihtout the need of going BDJ... The only title that have problems on blu-ray (had because they have been fixed) where BD-J title that load application before the movie.

Simple Authoring title like Warner are greatly compatible..

[MrPowers]

Woo! Finally! Some helpful information that isn't out of date!

Originally Posted by McBain

All replicated BD video discs MUST incorporate AACS and, as you say, recordable compatibility is spotty. That's the way it is.

Yea, that's what all the info I found points to, but what about this http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/to.../overview.html
"and create Blu-ray discs that can be played on any standard Blu-ray set top box or Playstation3 game console."

Is their definition of 'standard' ones that are newer, and can support BD-R discs (or whatever it's called)? Or, did Sonic (who makes Scenarist and owns Roxio), find a work around?

Originally Posted by socaltyger

From my research all the consumer level applications are having difficulty making acceptable replication masters. My understanding is that any title being blu-ray replicated requires the AACS fees you've mentioned. =(

For my company, I'm currently looking into Netblender's DoStudio ($280/month) alongside Inlet Fathom encoder ($8k). I posted a thread, but seems new threads (or new members) may be moderated?

I'm trying to see if Inlet Studio offers a trial version for their Fathom encoder.

Anyone here with experience using DoStudio or Inlet Fathom? Your thoughts?

No experience with either, though I did see DoStudio's website and was thinking that may be an option for us also.

Btw: yes, there is moderation, in this specific sub-forum at least, for new members. That's why there was like a week and a half between my posts.
I had PMed the moderator 'Blue' about it, who was going to just release my threads, but then it turned out there was something else going on that he couldn't fix, and he escalated it to someone else. Now, I can post here. I guess it's to prevent spammers, but if you contact a Mod to show you are honestly just a new member, they might be able to help. If you want, you can PM me your responses and I'll post them for you until your restrictions are off.

Originally Posted by ryoohki

Well the easiest way to do a blu-ray and not have to test it a lot is not to use JAVA.. you can do menu, overlay, etc.. wihtout the need of going BDJ... The only title that have problems on blu-ray (had because they have been fixed) where BD-J title that load application before the movie.

Simple Authoring title like Warner are greatly compatible..

So, if you avoid using BD-J for the menus, it will play in more set tops? I'm confused by what you said, couple typos that make me unclear what you were trying to say.

It's my understanding that older Blu-Ray set tops can't play BD-R discs, which don't need AACS (but also can't do menus or something like that??). To have your disc work on 99+% of set tops, you need to get involved with AACS.

[MrPowers]

Originally Posted by socaltyger

I'm trying to see if Inlet Studio offers a trial version for their Fathom encoder.

Anyone here with experience using DoStudio or Inlet Fathom? Your thoughts?

Oh, also, anyone here knowledgable about Cleaner XL 1.5? I've sorta been thrust into a position at work as a 'problem solver', but the entire process and gear we've got were setup by someone who is no longer here. The other people in the department use a lot of automation scripts that were setup by the older people a long time ago, but not what everything is doing. Therefore, when we run into problems, they don't know how to fix it, as they don't know HOW it's doing what it does. I've been having a hard time finding some good tutorials or info on XL 1.5. For example, it says it supports H.264 codec and .wmv files. However, when we go to process an .avi with the H.264 codec or a HD .wmv, it won't do it. We are encoding the file into multiple other formats (including .wmv) and adding watermarks to them. The only formats that seem to work 100% are uncompressed .avi and .m2t files.

[plee]

Originally Posted by MrPowers

I read a few other threads dealing with authoring blu-ray, but the threads and the information they contained were all from '06 and '07.

We produce our own media on DVDs currently, and are looking into offering Blu-Ray now. We've been using Vegas, Scenarist, some automation scripts and a few DVD duplicator towers to handle our DVD needs for some time.

However, we do not wish to spend the $30+grand for either Scenarist Blu-Ray or Blu-Print, and the thousands more on getting Blu-Ray duplicators, as we do not have the demand for the product to justify the cost. We would only need to make a handful of customized discs here and there in-house. We could outsource any bulk orders.

But, my question is this: is there now any reliable authoring programs on a consumer or prosumer level (i.e. that cost under or around a grand) that can handle making Master discs? If so, which ones? Keep in mind we are using Vegas 8 to handle editing and rendering of the files. But, we have other options available too.

Unfortunitely, for creating CMF files DVDit Pro HD is the closest thing that may work for now (Non-Pro). Hopefully, NetBlender, etc... will hopefully be another option. Check the Roxio linky...

http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=18111

DVDit Pro HD is authoring only so you'll still need Vegas to output your video files.

[MrPowers]

Originally Posted by trentv85050

AACS, HDCP are protection only. You dont have to implement them. If you want the protection, then buy the license fee.

I don't think you read the whole thread. You DO have to implement them for your disc to be playable on all set top players. That's the issue.

You can go without it, but you run into problems with many players, the older ones specifically, not being able to play your disc. Unless you know something that we all don't, which is why I started this thread. All the info I can find says that's the current situation, that smaller producers are sort of screwed right now. You have to be making enough discs to warrant the initial investment of 5+grand.

[WickyWoo]

I don't think you read the whole thread. You DO have to implement them for your disc to be playable on all set top players. That's the issue.

He is correct

The writeable discs that should play back with no problem are coming soon

[MrPowers]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

He is correct

The writeable discs that should play back with no problem are coming soon

I am or trent is?

Also, how soon? Any link?

[WickyWoo]

There isn't a date, hopefully by the end of the year. They require special formatting to function and you cannot use BD-J or any other high end features with them. I'm sorry I don't know a lot about it

You're correct

[MrPowers]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

There isn't a date, hopefully by the end of the year. They require special formatting to function and you cannot use BD-J or any other high end features with them. I'm sorry I don't know a lot about it

No problem, appreciate it. Is there a special name for them, that I might be able to google for some info on my own? Or are they just referred to as 'blu-ray writeable discs' right now?

[WickyWoo]

I tried googling it. The closest I came was "BD-RE AV", but I don't think that's right

If memory serves they're finalizing some copy protection aspects of it

[matthewrounds]

Originally Posted by MrPowers

Basically, is there no way to make a disc that will play on all, or the majority at least, of set top Blu-Ray players without paying the AACS fees of $3,000 and then $1,600 per title?

This is a really interesting thread that I wish could get more publicity. It does sound really frustrating for the small business owner to have to invest $4600 before pressing begins per title. I wonder if it would be cheaper to purchase all the players that exist and do a brute force test!

I was just wondering, by comparison what the cost is to get a DVD Master that will play on all DVD drives? Surely it is significantly less, but is the DVD Master price going to be the price point Blu-ray will drop to or will their still be a premium for blu-ray authoring?

[WickyWoo]

I was just wondering, by comparison what the cost is to get a DVD Master that will play on all DVD drives? Surely it is significantly less, but is the DVD Master price going to be the price point Blu-ray will drop to or will their still be a premium for blu-ray authoring?

It's several thousand dollars to pay for the stamper. You have to do a certain size run (usually at least 5000, for Blu I think it's 10) before that stamper is included in the price. Blu-ray has the additional cost of mandatory encryption which is $1600 per disc (and $3000 to join the club)

Now that's just the manufacturing end. As far as authoring and compression go, a typical 2 hour movie, assuming you already have the master tape will run between 5 and $8000 for professional work. Blu-rays are 4-5 times more. Again, this is for professional studio level work.

Blu-ray authoring and compression will always be more money than DVD, just the price of it will go down.

[MrPowers]

Originally Posted by matthewrounds

This is a really interesting thread that I wish could get more publicity. It does sound really frustrating for the small business owner to have to invest $4600 before pressing begins per title. I wonder if it would be cheaper to purchase all the players that exist and do a brute force test!

Brute force testing all the players will just show you that it definitely won't work on players X, Y and Z. There's no way to 'fix' the disc to then work on them. That's my understanding anyway, but I'm by no means an expert here.

I was just wondering, by comparison what the cost is to get a DVD Master that will play on all DVD drives? Surely it is significantly less, but is the DVD Master price going to be the price point Blu-ray will drop to or will their still be a premium for blu-ray authoring?

I've read somewhere that eventually the cost for Blu-Ray manufacturing could be even less then the current DVD prices, something inherent to the process making it cheaper (using less manufacturing materials iirc) once it's being produced in DVD quantities (i.e. in a few years when Blu-Ray is the actual standard for most households)

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

It's several thousand dollars to pay for the stamper. You have to do a certain size run (usually at least 5000, for Blu I think it's 10) before that stamper is included in the price. Blu-ray has the additional cost of mandatory encryption which is $1600 per disc (and $3000 to join the club)

Now that's just the manufacturing end. As far as authoring and compression go, a typical 2 hour movie, assuming you already have the master tape will run between 5 and $8000 for professional work. Blu-rays are 4-5 times more. Again, this is for professional studio level work.

Blu-ray authoring and compression will always be more money than DVD, just the price of it will go down.

Well, technically.... Blu-Ray will be cheaper then DVD at some point, as Blu-Ray becomes commonplace and DVD becomes a niche market. Like, it's cheaper to produce content on DVD now then it is on say.. Laser Disc

But, yea, it will be some time before Blu-Ray is at a similar price as DVDs, though I expect to see drastic price drops now that the format war is finally over, and everyone can invest in their manufacturing infrastructure with confidence.

The biggest problem is that, as you mentioned, there are multiple steps, all very costly for non-hollywood studios, and all of them effectively mandatory. You can hardly get your product out on Blu-Ray at the prosumer level, much less a consumer level. I was never a die hard blue or red, but this is one area where I sorta wish HD DVDs had won. While i've always felt Blu-Ray has superior quality, Sony made a big mistake in their support of producers and companies at a lower level than the big hollywood studios. HD DVD was more accessible from a producer's standpoint, given that it was based on normal DVD architecture, among other things, while Blu-Ray is a superior product from the consumer's standpoint. Luckily, it seems Sony has realized this, and there are solutions coming in the future.