30GB is not enough capacity for HD-DVD

[HDTV1080P]

30GB is not enough capacity for HD-DVD. For one thing HD-DVD camp is working on a triple layer 45GB or 51GB disc since they realize they need higher capacity. As an owner of the D-theater D-VHS system I have seen prerecorded 1080I movies with 1.54MB per second DTS sound tracks that use 50GB just for the movie with no extras. I know the D-VHS format only was supported by 4 studios with around 100 titles before dieing off. My point is D-VHS looks great using a 50GB tape encoded with MPEG-2 at up to 28.8MB per second. There was no room for extras using 50GB with MPEG-2 on D-VHS to maintain a Super bit HDTV quality. Now the Blu-ray camp made some bad decisions in the early days which have been corrected now. The first Blu-ray player was a Samsung that had a poor picture quality compared to the HD-DVD format and other Blu-ray players. Then the studios did something total stupid they released 25GB movies using MPEG-2 on Blu-ray. They should have used VC-1 or MPEG-4 on Blu-ray like HD-DVD does. In the early days this gave Blu-ray a black eye. Now many 50GB movies are being released.
Technically to have as good as picture as D-VHS movies one either needs a 50GB disc using MPEG-2 with no extras or one needs to use a MPEG-4 or VC1 with a HD-DVD 30GB or Blu-ray 50GB disc. I would like to see super bit HDTV movies. Studios can always place the extra stuff on a second Blu-ray discs and maximize the 50GB disc for picture and sound quality.
The smart move is for all studios to move away from MPEG-2 and use either VC1 or MPEG-4 for all movies regardless of the size of the disc. With possible 100GB and 200GB disc using MPEG-4 or VC-1 the movie could look very close to the studio master using a super high bit rate approaching 40MB per second for video.
Right now 1080P is the highest standard HDTV for consumer electronics for the next 5-10 years. Possible in 5-10 years consumer 2K and 4K projectors will be available with resolutions much better then 1080P. Then having large 200GB Blu-ray discs with VC-1 or MPEG-4 will be important feature.

[Maximus]

Preaching to the choir mate.

[Dave]

Well hello there
Thats what the whole thing is about.

HD DVD is bad for HD video...

[Zinn]

Looks good but most titles lacks lossless audio.

[Scorxpion]

Just to elaborate one more thing,Maybe it's true for Samsung player 1st generation ,and limitation to BD-25 .what you have mention about using VC-1 against MPEG2 this is cannot be applied to BD25 even with 5GB less in Space.

MPEG2 does prove itself as a powerful codec with many titles except for some like Fifth element according to my opinion should release this title once BD-50 is in production as now.Many Titles using MPEG2 on BD25 proves its Picture Quality Like tears of the Sun,Terminator 2,Lord of war,Into the blue,Swat,Stargate, and let's not forget MI3 done only on BD-25 and has superior picture ect...Now With Mpeg2 on BD50 Picture Quality is more better and superior to VC-1 of the same title done for Both like Paramount titles MPEG 2 does prove its superiority over VC-1 , have a look on highdefdigest.com or Hometheaterspot and see those two Paramount titles We were soldiers and The manchurian candidate using MPEG-2 against VC1 have equally picture of their counterpart or even better.

last thing to mention i wanna blame warner for using the same compression for Superman returns on blu-ray and HD-DVD ,if Superman Returns got MPEG2compression on Blu-ray the picture quality will exceed HD-DVD .

FOX Titles,Paramount,Buena Vista,Lionsgate are doing great JOB and Sony at first of a couple release was lost especially when Fifth element got a desperate review,but now and since middle of August is doing a great effort and Great job too.

Just i would like for Warner to Coop with both release equally and not only favour HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

[blitz6speed]

PaidGeek said that a new version of The Fifth Element will be out soon, around 2 months time frame. I am sure it will be a BD50, and hopefully AVC and of course, full uncompressed PCM like always.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

PaidGeek said that a new version of The Fifth Element will be out soon, around 2 months time frame. I am sure it will be a BD50, and hopefully AVC and of course, full uncompressed PCM like always.

Yes, and he recently reiterated this and pointed back to his post that indicated their intent to offer an upgrade for current owners unhappy with the quality of the initial release.

Class act all the way.

Gary

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Yes, and he recently reiterated this and pointed back to his post that indicated their intent to offer an upgrade for current owners unhappy with the quality of the initial release.

Class act all the way.

Gary

I was hoping that they would do that, it would be a really slick PR move for Sony, and it would go some way to restoring their reputation after the rootkit business. It would show that they recognise they made a mistake, taking away from the view of them being arrogant.

[Deciazulado]

As a film/tech lover/collector (and other err.. stuff) I'd keep it just for technical comparison purposes, comparing a transfer made from a print in MPEG-2 BD-25 to (hopefully) a transfer made from the original negative elements in AVC in a BD-50

[HDTV1080P]

In terms of picture and audio quality MPEG-4 and VC-1 is much better quality then MPEG-2. For example if you encoded a move at 28MB per second using VC-1 versus using 28MB per second with MPEG-2, VC-1 would always look better then MPEG-2. The problem we have today is people are using VC-1 AND MPEG-4 at very low bit rates to make the movie size as small as possible. When comparing VC-1 to MPEG-2 at the same exact bit rate VC-1 always looks better then MPEG-2.
Someday studios will stop using MPEG-2. VC-1 and MPEG-4 are much better then MPEG-2 when compared at the same bit rate. I would love to see a 50GB Fifth Element use MPEG-4 or VC1 at a high bit rate. The picture quality would be fantastic.

[dialog_gvf]

Correct. At equal bit-rates both VC-1 and AVC will beat MPEG-2. No doubt. The upcoming titles Over the Fence and Casino Royale will be AVC encoded. So, as promised, Sony is transitioning.

But, right now Microsoft and VC-1 is all about pushing down the bitrates to squeeze things into HD DVD's specs, and to train compressionists for the non-disc push to come. It has nothing to do with maximizing quality.

There is nothing available that allows VC-1 to be properly used on BD. Microsoft has chosen to play lip service to BD support, while refusing to join the BDA or produce an encoder specifically tuned for Blu-ray.

What they have done is come up with a tool that allows a studio to port the HD DVD VC-1 encoding to Blu-ray. This is how Warner does it.

The key aspect in favour of MPEG-2, from a studio's point of view AND for those wanting lots of content is: Encoding to MPEG-2 is fast and cheap. Commonly it takes a few days to encode a BD title in MPEG-2 and a few WEEKS to do the same in VC-1.

It takes much longer than MPEG-2 in AVC too, but at least there are a whole bunch of companies working on hardware encoders.

Gary

[Jonalan34]

Blu-ray camp have to prove that they can take advantage of 50gb Blu-ray discs.

So the capacity is pointless in movie business, size does not matter. Anything is possible to make improvement in reduce size of video and improvement picture quality.

So, I don't care about size for movies.

All I care about how large storage that I can store back-up on Blu-ray disc.

The point is it is not enough capacity for back-up disc on HD DVD for your computer. Blu-ray hold advantage in capacity for PC deptartment. I doubt HD DVD will be benfit for Computer, because we want more storage capacity on disc to back-up for computer. How does 50 gb or 100 gb or 200 gb on Blu-ray media storage sound? Better than 4.7 gb on DVD media storage.

**
I like to add comment.

We want to see more hours of contents on discs.

Blu-ray have 9 hours of HD Content on 50 gb.

HD DVD can hold 8 hours of HD Content on 30gb.

Depend what kinda video encode is going to be used.

Blu-ray suppose to be over 11 hours on 50 gb, but I failed to understand why it is one hour difference between 50 gb and 30 gb on HD Content. I know that most of HD DVD use VC-1. If Blu-ray use VC-1 codec, how many hours can 50 gb hold HD Contents?

Both is near equally or not on how many hours it can hold for Standard content and HD Content.

Both can hold over 20 hours of standard content.

However, Blu-ray have strong advantage for back-up media storage for computer.

[blitz6speed]

Originally Posted by Jonalan34

Blu-ray camp have to prove that they can take advantage of 50gb Blu-ray discs.

So the capacity is pointless in movie business, size does not matter. Anything is possible to make improvement in reduce size of video and improvement picture quality.

So, I don't care about size for movies.

All I care about how large storage that I can store back-up on Blu-ray disc.

The point is it is not enough capacity for back-up disc on HD DVD for your computer. Blu-ray hold advantage in capacity for PC deptartment. I doubt HD DVD will be benfit for Computer, because we want more storage capacity on disc to back-up for computer. How does 50 gb or 100 gb or 200 gb on Blu-ray media storage sound? Better than 4.7 gb on DVD media storage.

Can you honestly sit there and say space does not matter? King Kong is bare bones, and NO HD Audio, and its 29.8 gigs. Its completely and utterly tapped out. And this is not even a year into its life cycle. If it were on a BD50, you could fit ALL the extras in HD, ontop of uncompressed PCM sound and be 100% ok.

So you have to realize, space IS an issue.

[Deciazulado]

I think the Innocence and Brave Story ~40Mb/s BDs from Japan kinda proved it...

[Jonalan34]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

Can you honestly sit there and say space does not matter? King Kong is bare bones, and NO HD Audio, and its 29.8 gigs. Its completely and utterly tapped out. And this is not even a year into its life cycle. If it were on a BD50, you could fit ALL the extras in HD, ontop of uncompressed PCM sound and be 100% ok.

So you have to realize, space IS an issue.

So what. Do I really care?

I still will buy both formats no matter what.

Let me make point, winner of the format will be largest collection in my High Definition films library than loser of the format in 5 years.

Because I love to collect High Definition films, building my collection library is all matter to me.

I don't care how or what motion pictures industries put or add extra on BD and HD DVD, I still be happy to make purchase High Definition films on either format. I leave it to Industry, they made movies on BD and HD DVD, and I will be happy to buy movies from them.


When it come to computer, the size all matter to me! Not movie! I said that I would choice Blu-ray disc for my computer because I want larger size to store back-up file on BD rather than 4.7 gb DVD disc or HD DVD.

Everybody have difference on the point of view on how they prefer to make best experience of High Definition films.

So, I respect your comment and point of view. I really appreciate it.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Jonalan34

So what. Do I really care?

I still will buy both formats no matter what.

Let me make point, winner of the format will be largest collection in my High Definition films library than loser of the format in 5 years.

Because I love to collect High Definition films, building my collection library is all matter to me.

I don't care how or what motion pictures industries put or add extra on BD and HD DVD, I still be happy to make purchase High Definition films on either format. I leave it to Industry, they made movies on BD and HD DVD, and I will be happy to buy movies from them.


When it come to computer, the size all matter to me! Not movie! I said that I would choice Blu-ray disc for my computer because I want larger size to store back-up file on BD rather than 4.7 gb DVD disc or HD DVD.

Everybody have difference on the point of view on how they prefer to make best experience of High Definition films.

So, I respect your comment and point of view. I really appreciate it.

If you care so much about HD film why bother with HD DVD, King Kong is probably the best example of a ruined film, they had to squeeze so much data onto a small disc with low bandwidth that they completely cut out lossless audio. IMO audio is just as important as video when it comes to a good high definition experience. There is no point in having a huge projector screen if you have a crap sound system, and the same goes films, there is no point in having the best video ever, if the sound is second-rate.

The way I look at it is by comparing hardware and software, HD DVD has legacy hardware (the disc itself), and Blu-ray uses legacy software (MPEG-2, PCM), in my mind the easiest thing to upgrade is software, and that means it is the format for the future. So yes blu-ray is legacy to some extent, but that will change, Sony have announced that they are going to phase out MPEG2 in favour of AVC and a Sony insider has said that they are waiting on Dolby Labs to supply them with the tools to use TrueHD. HD DVD is also legacy, but they can't phase out bad technology and bad bandwidth; and as much as they would like to TL51 is very pie-in-the-sky.

[blitz6speed]

If you think its ok that there is no room for HD Extras and HD Audio, then i dont know what you are doing with HD movies. DVD should do you well if the top of the line experience isnt even important to you.

[Blue]

Can I suggest we slow down a bit. This thread is not heading the direction it should be.

[Jonalan34]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

If you care so much about HD film why bother with HD DVD, King Kong is probably the best example of a ruined film, they had to squeeze so much data onto a small disc with low bandwidth that they completely cut out lossless audio. IMO audio is just as important as video when it comes to a good high definition experience. There is no point in having a huge projector screen if you have a crap sound system, and the same goes films, there is no point in having the best video ever, if the sound is second-rate.

The way I look at it is by comparing hardware and software, HD DVD has legacy hardware (the disc itself), and Blu-ray uses legacy software (MPEG-2, PCM), in my mind the easiest thing to upgrade is software, and that means it is the format for the future. So yes blu-ray is legacy to some extent, but that will change, Sony have announced that they are going to phase out MPEG2 in favour of AVC and a Sony insider has said that they are waiting on Dolby Labs to supply them with the tools to use TrueHD. HD DVD is also legacy, but they can't phase out bad technology and bad bandwidth; and as much as they would like to TL51 is very pie-in-the-sky.

I just enjoyed to read your point of view. It don't really bother me.

Chuckle. How can audio be important when I am deaf? hmm...

Do I required best picture? Nope.

Oh well, I am still enjoying my HD experience with 40 inch Sony Bravia HDTV
(1080i), it is way off better than Standard dvd that have picture at 480p. So, this is the reason why I care about HD film.


Everybody have their own choice. I made my own choice to have both formats. I knew that I am going to get two formats back in 2005 when the peace solution talk failed between Sony and Toshiba right before it hit market.

So, now, what is most important to me when it come to HD films?

Subtitle and Caption are very important, it benefit me alot because I am deaf.

Nothing can stop me from change mind on point of view. I ain't go to change my goals that I set last year.
Only one thing changes in my goals is that I am cutting down buying DVD because of Blu-ray and HD DVD are in market. I am expecting to have more than 150 Blu-ray and HD DVD combine this year.

It amazed me how hd format went from small stock to larger stock last year.
I saw first HD DVD in May 2006, there was only 3 or 4 titles. Fast Forward to today, there are over 200 on HD DVD and Blu-ray combined.

Only one will be winner of this format war. I know who is going be winner but things can change in the landscape of the format war in an unpredictable. You know who is winner. That is plain and simiple.

So,for now, let's get back on direction where thread should be.

[Jonalan34]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

If you think its ok that there is no room for HD Extras and HD Audio, then i dont know what you are doing with HD movies. DVD should do you well if the top of the line experience isnt even important to you.

DVD is out of question. Thanks.

Let just move on and get back on track with topic of this thread.